Oops, big lump of your posts....

[ebg12]

The 13 Colonies were not a sovereign nation, but was/were in defiance of British law...ect ect ect..
George Washington was nnot a commissioned officer as the United States did not exist..blahblah


Simply put, "to the victor belong the spoils"...New York Senator William L. Marcy

might makes right...what makes independence?

 

[BarryR]

might makes right...what makes independence?

You said it..."Might makes right.."

 

[Irishtom29]

You said it..."Might makes right.."

In establishing nations? Yes, of course. You expected different?

 

[jgoodguy]

And that is the question at its base. Rebellion or Secession debated ad nauseam on here, books, podcasts, CW talks, Lectures, etc. I plan on asking the almighty one day, I feel confident he will shoot straight.

Be sure to figure a way to get the answer back here.

 

[byron ed]

Who was the Union army going to liberate in 1861?

Virginians.

 

[Kelly]

The Northern people waged a lawless international war of aggression against the Confederate States between 1861 and 1865.
The Confederate States were thoroughly sovereign from the Union.
Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were Confederate States Citizens in perfect harmony with Confederate States and international Law.
Jefferson Davis was the President of a sovereign nation because the CSA was under every definition a sovereign and independent country.
Robert E. Lee was commissioned General Officer in a sovereign nation's army because the CSA existed under every definition as a sovereign state.
Treason trials of both Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were absolutely not in the best interest of the United States after the civil war because there was no hope of ever obtaining a conviction.

 

[byron ed]

[QUOTE="Rebforever, post: 2022075, member: 7521]I have not seen an apology from anyone about killing out all the Indians.[/QUOTE]

...and yet, there have been several official apologies for unjust treatment and killing of Native Americans over the last 30 or so years. Selective listening is a choice that carries with it the risk of missing things.

In any event, the apologies aren't for committing the bad acts, things done by our predecessors, not us. The apologies are for having excused that the acts were bad -- you know, Lost Cause for instance.

I can only apologize for excusing the unjust treatment and killing of Native Americans, so I do that here. So there's one.

 

[Greywolf]

Hoping someone will be gentle here....I looked up the definition of sovereign nation on several sites, including law sites. By the general definition it looks as if the CSA could well have been sovereign. I did not see anything about having to be recognized. Can someone point me to something on that. Straight up question, trying to learn, not being a trixter

 

[ebg12]

The Northern people waged a lawless international war of aggression against the Confederate States between 1861 and 1865.
The Confederate States were thoroughly sovereign from the Union.
Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were Confederate States Citizens in perfect harmony with Confederate States and international Law.
Jefferson Davis was the President of a sovereign nation because the CSA was under every definition a sovereign and independent country.
Robert E. Lee was commissioned General Officer in a sovereign nation's army because the CSA existed under every definition as a sovereign state.
Treason trials of both Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were absolutely not in the best interest of the United States after the civil war because there was no hope of ever obtaining a conviction.

I don't agree except for your last statement.
Though many people wanted treason trials for both of them, rebel sympathy would have been convictions impossible contrary to the evidence.

 

[O' Be Joyful]

As further info, Bold is mine:

Wendell Phillips booed in Cincinnati

The March 1862 incident in Cincinnati demonstrated the fierce resistance that existed in the Northern states to the proposition of fighting a war to free the slaves. The most outspoken resisters lived in the “Butternut” region–the southern parts of Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. Called Butternuts because their homespun clothing was dyed a light brown from nut extracts, residents of the region did not own slaves but shared many sentiments with Southerners. Lincoln encountered serious resistance from this area when he announced his Emancipation Proclamation.​

​

Also and note this is a download:
library.cincymuseum.org/topics/c/files/civilwar/chsbull-v35-n2-sou-098.pdf

Edit to add: from the pdf., upland Southerners who had crossed the Ohio River to preempt the ... These so-called "Butternuts" carried hickory branches at party rallies, revered ... "Matters look blue enough here," a Cincinnati resident wrote in late 1861;.

​

 

[WJC]

The Southern people were in rebellion in the United States between 1861 to 1865.
The Southern States were never sovereign from the Union.
Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were United States Citizens in defiance to United States Law.
Jefferson Davis was not a President of a sovereign nation because the CSA did not exist.
Robert E. Lee was not a commissioned officer in a sovereign nation's army because the CSA did not exist.
Treason trials of both Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee was not in the best interest of the United States after the civil war.

A good summary, certainly of the way Lincoln viewed it: it was the basis for his policies.

 

[Kelly]

I don't agree except for your last statement.
Though many people wanted treason trials for both of them, rebel sympathy would have been convictions impossible contrary to the evidence.

Sympathy or not, the constitution does not prohibit secession. The cause of the U.S. would have been exposed for the enormous illegality that it was.

 

[ebg12]

Hoping someone will be gentle here....I looked up the definition of sovereign nation on several sites, including law sites. By the general definition it looks as if the CSA could well have been sovereign. I did not see anything about having to be recognized. Can someone point me to something on that. Straight up question, trying to learn, not being a trixter

the word "could have" is the key...as opposed to the American Revolution and the word "did". I think you have to win before being accepted. " Might makes right' in the world of nation building.

 

[ebg12]

Sympathy or not, the constitution does not prohibit secession. The cause of the U.S. would have been exposed for the enormous illegality that it was.

but what about the preamble and the duty of the president to preserve the Union (capital U as in a noun)?

 

[Greywolf]

the word "could have" is the key...as opposed to the American Revolution and the word "did". I think you have to win before being accepted. " Might makes right' in the world of nation building.

Yes, without question if they won. Curious about those 4 years, that by definition had most of the sovereign characteristics.

 

[WJC]

The Northern people waged a lawless international war of aggression against the Confederate States between 1861 and 1865.

Only if one assumes that the so-called 'Confederate States of America' was a sovereign, independent nation. No country in the world recognized them as such.
On the other hand, Gary Gallagher teaches his conclusion that for practical purposes (not for legal reasons), the so-called 'Confederate States of America' was independent.
So long as we keep those distinctions in mind I believe both describe the status of the rebel 'government'.

 

[Gene Green]

The National Magazine quoted a Northerner who endeavored to impress them [southerners] with the advantages they would derive from having New England institutions there but found they were only ready to sneer at the idea. The southerners talked of our tendencies to make money- and bring down wooden clocks. One man said to me down there “you make wooden nutmegs”. “Well” I said, “on the question of wooden nutmegs I shall have to remain silent, but I would rather come from that part of the country where the people make wooden nutmegs than to come from that part of the country where the people are fools enough to buy them.”

 

[WJC]

Hey wait a minute...If the CSA did not exist, who is gonna pay me the 6% owed on my Confederate bonds ????

That was the plight of many in 1865.

 

[Kelly]

Foreign recognition has nothing to do with the existence of a state. States recognize one anther out of interest, not out of any legal obligation. There is no law requiring one state to recognize any other state. It is purely voluntary and again, has no bearing on the question of political independence. None whatsoever.

 

[WJC]

Got it, so they were either Ghosts or playing make believe like little girls having a tea party.

No, the rebels were serious- just unsuccessful.