Oops, big lump of your posts....

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James Lutzweiler

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No problem. The primacy of Slavery for Secession and War, is quite plain, historically speaking.
My silence, as you must know, is not tantamount to your declaration of the primacy of slavery. And as I recall, even you called the creators of the Sec Dec liars or the equivalent thereto.

Peace.
 

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James Lutzweiler

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Here is another case in point why South Carolina's secession declarations were nothing but baloney. These declarations were simply deliberately vague generalizations that strawmanned the north. To read them one would think every last Yankee was an abolitionist. That, of course, is about as far from the truth as you can get. Take, for example, one group of Yankees: the Irish. In his book The Cause of All Nations, Don Doyle states that the Irish had no interest in freeing slaves because they did not want those slaves competing with them for jobs. South Carolina's declarations overwhelmingly and falsely characterize the Yankees as nothing but fire-eating abolitionists.

Conclusion: South Carolina's secession declarations simply flunk the truth test. F-.
 

John S. Carter

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Fellow Posters,

I weary of reading about all the cultural conflict and differences between the North and the South during this period with virtually no mention, let alone emphasis, upon what the sections had in common. I wonder if some of you might think with me along these lines and share your thoughts with me. In thinking of a divorce in marriage that I know about, one spouse, having determined upon a course of action, could find absolutely no good or common ground with her mate because to do so might have halted her pre-determined course of action. In short, the spouse in question was far from objectivity and balance. Her course of action dictated what she had to pile up as negative excuses about her mate for justifying her pre-determined conduct. And so I am wondering just how many things the North and South had IN COMMON that the South, especially South Carolina, ignored in the ultimate crafting of Secession Declarations. E.g., in the Declarations I find NO MENTION of the $10 million subsidy given to the South by Congress in 1853. Simple question: What other good and common things did these Sections enjoy but that the Seceshers ignored? For the sake of discussion feel free to widen the time period from 1850-186 to 1845-1861.

James
They shared a past that had held the two together,they endured the hardships and glory together.They shared a racial superiority against the Negro or in the West it was the Mexican.The difference was the central vs the state authority which can be traced to the Declaration of Independence struggle as to slavery then to the Constitution legal interpretation of state vs. central authority.They did share the same arrogant hostile attitude towards each other which can be because of difference in heritage.
 

USS ALASKA

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Senior Research Projects Southern Scholars
2004

A Nation Divided: The Cherokee Alliance with the Confederate States of America
by Adam Ruf

This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Southern Scholars at KnowledgeExchange@Southern. It has been accepted for inclusion in Senior Research Projects by an authorized administrator of KnowledgeExchange@Southern. For more information, please contact jspears@southern.edu.

There have been many books written about the Civil War-from biographies of famous generals to commentaries on social conditions in the North and South, even fictional books about Civil War heroes. Among the vast stacks of books about the Civil War there is one topic which is severely under-represented. The collection of literature about the involvement ofNative Americans in the Civil War is surprisingly small and insufficient. The books written on the subject tend to discuss the impact Cherokee brigades had fighting for the Confederacy against the Union. Historians rush headlong into gruesome and detailed accounts of the battles and the successes of the Cherokees in the Civil War, often overlooking the incredible story that led to the alliance of the Cherokees with the Confederate States. This paper will examine the three main factors that changed the Cherokee position from neutrality to open alliance with the Confederate
States of America.


https://knowledge.e.southern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1039&context=senior_research
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OpnCoronet

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SC tried, I think, to deny and denigrate the idea that they and the rest of the South really had a common history, at all, with the North.

SC and the South had been a part of A Union even before that very same Union had won its independence, even as the southern state leaders diligently tried to ignore, if not deny, the idea that the history of the United States of America extended any further back than the AOC.
 

WJC

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The difference was the central vs the state authority which can be traced to the Declaration of Independence struggle as to slavery then to the Constitution legal interpretation of state vs. central authority.
Was it a difference over responsible authority or a growing difference in attitudes concerning slavery?
 

OpnCoronet

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As noted by others on this thread, the two sections shared a common history and a common government. No state was any more free, or equal, than any other state.

As noted before, I do not believe, that beyond slavery, there was any significant differences between the gov'ts, economies or social groupings, that would easily identify one state from another, not ascribable to geographic regions(the boundaries of which usually cut across state borders)
 
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They shared most American things in that they had similar:

Sports

Gambling

Music

Dating and courtship ideas

Writing

Railroads and transportation


There are countless reports of North and South soldiers meeting under truce to gamble and trade. The commons soldiers weren't foreign to one another, just saw the world differently.

It really isn't much different than today with rural and urban areas. We are all Americans, we all share most of the same culture, we just share different ideas about how to progress with our culture.

Stay Civil

ACWC
 

John S. Carter

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Was it a difference over responsible authority or a growing difference in attitudes concerning slavery?
Go back to Calhoun and Jackson discussion over traffic ,then go back further to Jefferson and Madison during the Adams administration then finally return to Clinton of New York Patrick Henry and Richard Henry Lee writings on the Constitution Read the Anti federaalist papers about the fear of central over states authority.No it was not just slavery.
 

WJC

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Go back to Calhoun and Jackson discussion over traffic ,then go back further to Jefferson and Madison during the Adams administration then finally return to Clinton of New York Patrick Henry and Richard Henry Lee writings on the Constitution Read the Anti federaalist papers about the fear of central over states authority.No it was not just slavery.
Thanks for your response.
From my reading, I do not believe southern states were unique in their concern over the more powerful central government established under our Constitution. All of the states were concerned to various degrees. Most concerns were alleviated with the passage of time and participation in the process so that by the time in question, 1850-1860, slavery dominated the discussion. In that period, the battles over states' rights were fought against those states like Wisconsin who asserted the right not to allow slavery.
 
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As noted by others on this thread, the two sections shared a common history and a common government. No state was any more free, or equal, than any other state.

As noted before, I do not believe, that beyond slavery, there was any significant differences between the gov'ts, economies or social groupings, that would easily identify one state from another, not ascribable to geographic regions(the boundaries of which usually cut across state borders)
Well spoken. Thank you.

Would you agree with me that the South and South Carolina in particular magnified this difference over slavery, as would a spouse who has decided already in divorce and must therefore exaggerate the differences in order to justify the upcoming divorce? I.e. That his/her spouse was totally incapable of doing anything right or honorable and that there is simply no other way out?
 

USS ALASKA

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Doctoral Dissertations Graduate School
5-2013

The Dixie Plantation State: Antebellum Fiction and Global Capitalism
by Katharine Aileen Burnett

This Dissertation is brought to you for free and open access by the Graduate School at Trace: Tennessee Research and Creative Exchange. It has been accepted for inclusion in Doctoral Dissertations by an authorized administrator of Trace: Tennessee Research and Creative Exchange. For more information, please contact trace@utk.edu.

ABSTRACT
“The Dixie Plantation State: Antebellum Fiction and Global Capitalism” connects the development of literature of the U.S. South to the ideological tensions inherent in the southern plantation economy before the Civil War. Southern literary form during this time reflects an economy that was sustained by international capitalism but which imagined itself as a version of provincial feudalism. The antebellum southern economy was defined by slavery and individual plantations, which created a culture that was isolated, rural, and oppressive. However, with global trade through cotton plantations as the driving force behind regional profit, the southern economy was also shaped by a form of laissez-faire, liberal capitalism that emphasized individual opportunism and modernization. The texts I discuss create myths of plantation life and re-imagine southern society under the plantation economy in ways that simultaneously support and question the ideological foundations of the system. Literary representation then becomes a method of merging nineteenth-century models of capitalism and international trade with the ostensibly self-contained tendencies of the plantation and the racial oppression of the slave system.
Each chapter is organized around a different literary form or genre and incorporates a comparative study of British fiction and fiction of the U.S. South. I argue that the form of nineteenth-century southern literature developed in tandem with the expansion of transatlantic trade. Therefore, the antebellum authors I discuss in this study do not consistently separate literary value from practical business or financial concerns. In chapters that focus on the historical romance, the sketch form, social problem novels and African-American autobiographical narratives, I highlight the interconnected nature of literary representation and economic change. Authors such as William Gilmore Simms, Joseph Glover Baldwin, George Tucker, Maria J. McIntosh, and Martin Delany drew from British novels such as Sir Walter Scott’s Waverley, Charles Dickens’s Sketches by Boz, and Elizabeth Gaskell’s North and South to represent the South as both economically progressive and culturally traditional. In this sense, fiction allowed southern authors to engage with the quasi-feudal space of the plantation within the modern economic models of the nineteenth century, without fully rejecting or denying either.


https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2878&context=utk_graddiss

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jgoodguy

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Banking on Slavery in the Antebellum South
Emphasis mine
Inspired by the thread on NY loans to Southern plantations owners.

Someone had to finance a legal economic enterprise in the Antebellum South.

Despite the rich literature on the history of slavery, the scholarship on bank financing of slavery is quite slim. My research demonstrates that commercial banks were willing to accept slaves as collateral for loans and as a part of loans assigned over to them from a third party. Many helped underwrite the sale of slaves, using them as collateral. They were willing to sell slaves as part of foreclosure proceedings on anyone who failed to fulfill a debt contract. Commercial bank involvement with slave property occurred throughout the antebellum period and across the South. Some of the most prominent southern banks, as well as the Second Bank of the United States, directly issued loans using slaves as collateral. This places southern banking institutions at the heart of the buying and selling of slave property, one of the most reviled aspects of the slave system. This project will result in the first major monograph on the relationship between banking and slavery in the antebellum South.​
A look under the hood of slavery on how money moved it to the determent of African Americans. Bear in mind that morality plays second fiddle to money and all we see is legal and moral in the world where these activities were transacted. It is another look at one of the mechanisms that supported slavery such as legal, social and political.
Chapter 1 will set the scene, describing southern banking, explaining how various mortgage and loan contracts worked, and examining the legal issues regarding contracting, foreclosure, and the breakup of slave families. Chapter 2 will examine slave mortgages by southern commercial banks through the 1830s, looking particularly at the role these mortgages played in the speculation leading up to the Panics of 1819 and 1837. Chapter 3 will focus on the involvement of the First and Second Banks of the United States in slave mortgaging, and the role these mortgages played in the failure of the Second Bank in the 1840s. Chapter 4 will examine the plantation banks, with a particular emphasis on the Citizens’ Bank of Louisiana. Although the Citizens’ Bank of Louisiana stopped payment on its bond obligations in 1842, it continued in operation until the early twentieth century. During the 1840s, it actively provided mortgages on plantations and slaves without the direct sanction of the state, and by 1852, the bank was able to convince the state to revive its charter. It actively underwrote slave mortgages through the Civil War. Chapter 5 will return to the experiences of commercial banks with slave mortgaging during the 1840s and 1850s. In particular, this chapter will examine the relationships of banks with slave traders, and the effects of sales on slave families. The final chapter will look at the legal and economic implications of emancipation for these mortgage contracts.​
 
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Second paragraph, "....how money moved it to the detriment of African Americans." I admit I know very little to this specialized subject matter, and very much desire to review it, not for the purpose of fault, but rather to learn from your experience. Block sale advocates, as slave traders and participants in defaulted loans such as found in auctions to a highest bidder; and for those that possibly are not yet in default but in late payment; the influence these 'bill-collectors' used against existing delinquency, for breaking up a full block sale, and causing piecemeal dispersion.
I wish not to guide nor direct your monograph in any manner, but rather desire for you to understand this reader's interest, and particular items that surfaced to my thoughts, believing I could touch a chord of harmony to know if I understood you correctly. My personal thought immediately saw opportunity for someone to map out the spread of slavery, similar to patterns of immigration, and had wondered too, if you had that goal in mind.
Allow me to repeat my own agenda; I wish not to meddle with your outlined thesis; but you sparked enough interest for me to remain vigilant.
Thanks, Lubliner.
 

jgoodguy

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Second paragraph, "....how money moved it to the detriment of African Americans." I admit I know very little to this specialized subject matter, and very much desire to review it, not for the purpose of fault, but rather to learn from your experience. Block sale advocates, as slave traders and participants in defaulted loans such as found in auctions to a highest bidder; and for those that possibly are not yet in default but in late payment; the influence these 'bill-collectors' used against existing delinquency, for breaking up a full block sale, and causing piecemeal dispersion.
I wish not to guide nor direct your monograph in any manner, but rather desire for you to understand this reader's interest, and particular items that surfaced to my thoughts, believing I could touch a chord of harmony to know if I understood you correctly. My personal thought immediately saw opportunity for someone to map out the spread of slavery, similar to patterns of immigration, and had wondered too, if you had that goal in mind.
Allow me to repeat my own agenda; I wish not to meddle with your outlined thesis; but you sparked enough interest for me to remain vigilant.
Thanks, Lubliner.
I am just following where the author goes.
 

O' Be Joyful

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Chapter 3 will focus on the involvement of the First and Second Banks of the United States in slave mortgaging, and the role these mortgages played in the failure of the Second Bank in the 1840s.
I've always suspected that Andy Jackson had to have had some...good reason to oppose the Bank. And there it is, plain as day, Andy was a secret abolitionist! :rolleyes:

Another great find jgg. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
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Chapter 1 will set the scene, describing southern banking, explaining how various mortgage and loan contracts worked, and examining the legal issues regarding contracting, foreclosure, and the breakup of slave families. Chapter 2 will examine slave mortgages by southern commercial banks through the 1830s, looking particularly at the role these mortgages played in the speculation leading up to the Panics of 1819 and 1837.
Southern banks? Really?

This may work out to be a very entertaining thread.
 
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