Restricted New Jersey governor has had the Mississippi state flag removed from Liberty Park.

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Viper21

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Which still doesn't let the Confederacy off the hook. The Confederate nation uniquely founded itself on the very idea of continuing and expanding slavery. That's a bit more culpable than allowing slavery to slip by in the interest of Union, the original sin of the nation.

(Just so you know, we realize the hope in equating past slavery in the whole country with southern slavery under the Confederacy is to sway folks into thinking southern slavery under the Confederacy as somewhat justified by "fair" comparison (i.e. "Mommy, Billy did it too").
So.... an ideal (the CSA), which according to many here, never existed (4yrs). Is somehow more culpable, than a Nation that absolutely existed, & was complacent in slavery for 80+yrs, & a couple hundred years prior as colonies...??? :O o:

That is insane.
 

CSA Today

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Thanks for your response.
No doubt racist organizations have tried to change their image over the years. The post-WW1 Klan emphasized 'America First' and used Old Glory as their symbol. In the 1960s until today, the Klan largely replaced the American Flag with the CBF. Today's racists use both those and other symbols.
The fact remains that at least as far as New Jersey's governor is concerned, he believes he can 'make hay' by bashing the CBF.
Starting in the 1960s, The Confederate Flag became a greater media attention getter for the Klan than did the American Flag. Hopefully, that will change soon as the radical element turn their attention to more nationwide targets.
 

WJC

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Starting in the 1960s, The Confederate Flag became a greater media attention getter for the Klan than did the American Flag. Hopefully, that will change soon as the radical element turn their attention to more nationwide targets.
Thanks for your response.
Whatever one's views on the symbol, the 'damage' has been done and most likely cannot be undone.
 
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JPChurch

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I've been to NJ 3 times in my life. First time was to drive up and visit the Playboy Casino when it first opened. The drive was awful but the Casino was very entertaining!!!!!!!! Next time I drove up there was to be the designated driver of a van full of neighborhood youngsters turning 21 that wanted to get into the Belagio Casino. That was a nightmare following gps instructions, cause you can't turn left up there into oncoming traffic, but the gps unit says "turn left here". The tolls are costly and all the highways are in deplorable condition. You can't pump your own gas. Last time was in 2012 to go to my nephew's wedding. I did not want to attend it but the rest of my family insisted. That was really expensive just to go up there and stay in an ocean front hotel room for two days. I kept thinking all this $ I'm shelling out for this could have paid for the new garage door I needed or getting my driveway gutted out and new asphalt put down and steamrolled. And the food up there is lousy and expensive no matter where you go. I'll never venture up to New Jersey again. The farmers up there do grow some fine blueberries however. I always pick up a few pints when they hit the grocery stores here in Virginia...great for pies and such.....
 

WJC

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I've been to NJ 3 times in my life. First time was to drive up and visit the Playboy Casino when it first opened. The drive was awful but the Casino was very entertaining!!!!!!!! Next time I drove up there was to be the designated driver of a van full of neighborhood youngsters turning 21 that wanted to get into the Belagio Casino. That was a nightmare following gps instructions, cause you can't turn left up there into oncoming traffic, but the gps unit says "turn left here". The tolls are costly and all the highways are in deplorable condition. You can't pump your own gas. Last time was in 2012 to go to my nephew's wedding. I did not want to attend it but the rest of my family insisted. That was really expensive just to go up there and stay in an ocean front hotel room for two days. I kept thinking all this $ I'm shelling out for this could have paid for the new garage door I needed or getting my driveway gutted out and new asphalt put down and steamrolled. And the food up there is lousy and expensive no matter where you go. I'll never venture up to New Jersey again. The farmers up there do grow some fine blueberries however. I always pick up a few pints when they hit the grocery stores here in Virginia...great for pies and such.....
Thanks for relating your 'Garden State memories'.
Do you support or oppose the governor's action?
 
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major bill

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But New Jersey is "The Garden State " so it must be beautiful. I am not sure it is fair to judge a state by the ti.e one spent isbasic training there. If so my 9 weeks in South Carolina would not leve me with a good opinion of South Carolina.

Still al this has little to do with the Governor taking down a flag.
 

GwilymT

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Whose flag flew over slave ships, the one at Sand Creek and Wounded Knee?
We are discussing the Mississippi State flag which includes an iconic symbol of the confederacy and white supremacy, not the particular navy jacks you’d like to direct attention to... if you’d like to discuss the slave trade, or Indian Wars, start a thread to discuss those topics. If the Governor of New Jersey doesn’t want what he and his constituents see as a symbol of white supremacy to have prominence in his state, he doesn’t have to.
 
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GwilymT

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All of which can be attributed to Old Glory just as easily, & in some cases for many more years.

Don't misread me, I love this country, & our flag. I am one who wrote a blank check to the government to defend it. However, I get pretty irritated with the nonsense of attempting to attach the CBF to the klan, or any other hate group. My previous comment stands, & is fact. For every picture of a hater with the CBF, I can show one of a hater with Old Glory. That little fact seems to escape those attempting to connect hate & the CBF.
Please stop with the “you too” argument. I’m sure that many people will agree with you that the US Flag is a symbol of oppression and white supremacy. How does this have any bearing on the current conversation?
 

GwilymT

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So.... an ideal (the CSA), which according to many here, never existed (4yrs). Is somehow more culpable, than a Nation that absolutely existed, & was complacent in slavery for 80+yrs, & a couple hundred years prior as colonies...??? :O o:

That is insane.
We are discussing a symbol of the CSA. If you’d like to discuss the terrible record of the United States regarding race relations, feel free to start a thread. You’d find that most of those who you accuse of TOV or of being “Northern Apologists” or whatever nickname is currently popular on the boards, will agree with you. Probably more so than you’d like. However, on this thread we are discussing how the flag of Mississippi has been removed from a Park by the Governor of New Jersey. He did so because it incorporates a well known and recognized symbol of white supremacy.

You can argue that the symbol in question isn’t a well known and recognized symbol of white supremacy all you want. Saying that the flag of the United States is ALSO symbol of white supremacy doesn’t change anything.
 
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John Hartwell

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It is unjust, indeed, to put the onus of slavery only on the southern states.

Until the passage of the 14th Amendment, race slavery was a national disgrace, with the United States in its entirety complicit in its practice and protection.

Openly admitting that also helps allay the feelings of those states that dragged our country through four bloody years of death and destruction before they were forced, kicking and screaming, into doing what other states had long since done willingly. Thus affirming the special virtue of being among the very last to do the right thing.
 

CSA Today

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It is unjust, indeed, to put the onus of slavery only on the southern states.

Until the passage of the 14th Amendment, race slavery was a national disgrace, with the United States in its entirety complicit in its practice and protection.

Openly admitting that also helps allay the feelings of those states that dragged our country through four bloody years of death and destruction before they were forced, kicking and screaming, into doing what other states had long since done willingly. Thus affirming the special virtue of being among the very last to do the right thing.
Virtue had nothing to do with the North going to war, they went to war to prevent the loss of territory and money.
 
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unionblue

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Ive been reading this thread for a few days and was not going to chime but after reading some of this Edited. and a few Sam Adams I decided I would NOT chime in due to the fact that the only thing I know about NJ is from my 10 weeks in the Garden State and during the whole time I never saw a garden and every where I looked were yankees. When I drew my US Army issue I had a yankee civil service guy that was handing boots say "I bet thats the first pair of shoes you've ever had" from then on I keep my mouth shut so my Southern accent didn't come out did my 10 weeks and NEVER went back to the Garden State.
Odd,

When I went through Basic at Ft. Dix, NJ, I was accused of being Southern because of my 'pronounced' Southern accent AND a Preacher because I carried a Bible in my duffle bag, a gift from my local church before I left for Basic.

I guess my accent was Southern to my DI's because I was from the South side of Columbus, Ohio!
 

WJC

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Virtue had nothing to do with the North going to war, they went to war to prevent the loss of territory and money.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but as I read the remark ("Thus affirming the special virtue of being among the very last to do the right thing."), I understood it to be referring to Southerners, not Northerners.
 
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JPChurch

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The question posed to me by the moderator was a ponderance on my part if I approved of the governor's action to exclude the state flag in question. No I do not. But he has the power to do it.

Remember the Georgia state flag got changed years ago to eliminate the Confederate battle flag that was up in the left corner. That was changed by the entire state's elected officials' votes as a result of the proposition to do so put before the legislature.
 

trice

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But New Jersey is "The Garden State " so it must be beautiful. I am not sure it is fair to judge a state by the ti.e one spent isbasic training there. If so my 9 weeks in South Carolina would not leve me with a good opinion of South Carolina.

Still al this has little to do with the Governor taking down a flag.
I recall reading entries from old diaries and pieces of letters home written by New England soldiers in 1776. It was their first experience of New Jersey, during the hard year when the British would chase them across New Jersey and the Delaware. Even then, the soldiers were noting how easy it would be to farm here without all those rocks in the fields.

Bergen County (northeast NJ, by the George Washington Bridge these days) was really seen as a garden spot, a huge source of produce to New York City up until about the 1950s. New Jersey tomatoes were famous. Things started changing with the opening of the GW Bridge (1933?) and the housing boom after WWII. Nowadays, farms of any kind are hard to find in NJ and close to extinct in Bergen County.

I agree it has nothing to do with the Governor taking down a flag. That is just the politics of the day.
 
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