New image shows Billy the Kid playing croquet

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Waterloo50

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Indeed! That's a degree of perseverance I do not possess... There are some real descendants of Jesse's living hereabouts and they say it was definitely Mr Howard who got shot by the coward! Almost none of these outlaws died in a real high noon shoot-out, always in the back...that was the only way you'd take out somebody as deadly as these pistoleers! Or, in Billy's case, in the dark...
Ah that's the truth, there's nothing glorious or heroic about it. I was reading about a chap called Ben Thompson, he was an Englishman that upset a few people, Bill Hickok being one of them, when he met his end in a shootout he had only managed to fire two shots yet his body had 13 holes in it, they were extremely violent times.
 

shootseven

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Agree, the landscape really doesn't match and apart from erosion there's just no other explanation for the vast differences in the background.
I have also read up into the whole facial recognition side of things and it seems that very few experts hold much faith in it. A good example would be the British Metropolitan Police, following the 2011 riots, the police could only match one face out of 4000 (cctv footage) using the software, the problem is that CCTV footage is normally low quality so what chance the software has with an old tintype is anyone's guess. So, that really only leaves the location which is not really a match. As you have already pointed out, some documentary evidence is needed which places those people in a specific location at a specific time and that just doesn't look like that will ever happen. So there you have it, I'm converted, a disappointed convert but a convert non the less, I'm not going to give up hope though, I just hope that one day someone will turn up with an authentic photo of Billy. What an elusive character he was, I'd like one day to be able to say that I visited the grave of Billy but it seems even that's a tall order, two graves both claiming to belong to Billy, sigh, I'm going to have to visit both. Oh well, at least I didn't part with millions of Dollars for a 'tintype', I can't remember where I read it 'probably in True West Magazine' someone posed the question 'if you had millions of dollars to spend on an authentic artefact of the old west, would you spend it on the tintype croquet picture?' I'd have to say.....No.
Interesting point with the British Metropolitan Police/facial recognition example.

When you say two sites claim to have Billy the Kid graves; do you mean both museums in Fort Sumner, or are you including the grave of that fraud Brushy Bill Roberts? As for the Fort Sumner graves, the museum in town has a replica of Billy's grave (no fraud here, they represent it properly as a replica) which causes some confusion; but the actual grave is outside of town behind the former Old Fort Sumner Museum. The museum itself is now closed (much of the items from it were recently auctioned off http://auctionsouthwest.com/2016/06/billy-the-kid-and-pat-garrett-memorabilia-from-the-old-fort-sumner-museum-online-auction/bentleys-billythekid-auction-truewest-hc-ad-2_page_1/) but the cemetery is still open. The trip is worth it if you just want to see the grave, but nothing is left of the old Fort. For Billy the Kid history, the town of Lincoln is a much better place to visit. Still looks pretty much the same as it did in the 1870s (with the exception of the paved road and telephone lines).

Lincoln:
lincoln1.jpg


And the court house from which Billy made his famous escape:
lincolncountycourthouse1.jpg
 

shootseven

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That's the problem, money gets in the way but then the owner of the latest alleged 'Billy' discovery has said that he's not interested in selling.
I have to ask, do you think that Brushy Bill Roberts was Billy? or did Pat Garret finish the job.
I'm convinced Garrett killed Billy. Too many in Fort Sumner (and not all friends) saw his body. As for Brushy Bill, before claiming to be Billy, he claimed to be a member of the James gang:
Article.jpg
 

Waterloo50

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Interesting point with the British Metropolitan Police/facial recognition example.

When you say two sites claim to have Billy the Kid graves; do you mean both museums in Fort Sumner, or are you including the grave of that fraud Brushy Bill Roberts? As for the Fort Sumner graves, the museum in town has a replica of Billy's grave (no fraud here, they represent it properly as a replica) which causes some confusion; but the actual grave is outside of town behind the former Old Fort Sumner Museum. The museum itself is now closed (much of the items from it were recently auctioned off http://auctionsouthwest.com/2016/06/billy-the-kid-and-pat-garrett-memorabilia-from-the-old-fort-sumner-museum-online-auction/bentleys-billythekid-auction-truewest-hc-ad-2_page_1/) but the cemetery is still open. The trip is worth it if you just want to see the grave, but nothing is left of the old Fort. For Billy the Kid history, the town of Lincoln is a much better place to visit. Still looks pretty much the same as it did in the 1870s (with the exception of the paved road and telephone lines).

Lincoln:
View attachment 167567

And the court house from which Billy made his famous escape:
View attachment 167568
Thank you for posting those pictures.
I was thinking of the grave of Brushy Bill Roberts and the grave at Fort Sumner. The town of Lincoln is definitely somewhere I would like to visit. I have watched quite a few online vids of people visiting the original grave site but unfortunately they weren't allowed to film inside the museum, its a shame that its gone.
 
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mofederal

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Too bad they disproved the dimes in the shotgun story on TV. It made for s great scene in Pat Garret and Billy The Kid. Not too bad in Young Guns either. I thought they did a good job with Pat Garret's assassination at the start of the film too. The series on Billy was on Gunslingers on AHC. It was a pretty good series. Easy to enjoy, well done. The Brushy Bill story is interesting, except for the J. Frank Dalton story. That is a load of **** at best. Not worth the trouble it takes to read it. Pretty laughable at best. Not very interesting either. Most of the Jesse James never died in 1882 are really strange, almost a cottage industry in the US. Sorry for the diversion from Billy. I have seen more than a few Billy the Kid images that are fake. Some on sites, which present themselves as legitimate historical sites. I guess it is hard to escape your own importance and relevance to history.
 

rebel brit

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Just found this old picture in the attic.................. starting bids at $1.000,000 :wavespin:

IMG_8631 (2).JPG

Great thread .
One thing that puzzles me is why ,when it was common practice to take a photo as proof, was there no picture taken of Billy's dead body .
If Pat Garrett was responsible for tracking down and capturing or killing Billy why when the job was done didn't he transport the body back to Lincoln?
 

Waterloo50

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Just found this old picture in the attic.................. starting bids at $1.000,000 :wavespin:

View attachment 167777

Great thread .
One thing that puzzles me is why ,when it was common practice to take a photo as proof, was there no picture taken of Billy's dead body .
If Pat Garrett was responsible for tracking down and capturing or killing Billy why when the job was done didn't he transport the body back to Lincoln?
I think this provides an answer.
In more recent times, a chap by the name of Stahl petitioned the courts for an official Death certificate for Billy the Kid, he based his petition on eyewitness accounts from Maxwell, Garrett’s posse and Fort Sumner residents and friends of Billy the Kid, that had arrived at the scene shortly after the shooting and confirmed that the body was that of the Billy.
Stahl raises an important point, he claims that no single person that was at Fort Sumner at the time of Billy's death ever denied that Garret had killed Billy.
'Stahl says that in 1880s New Mexico a coroner’s jury report was considered the equivalent of an official death certificate today, and just such a report was issued for Billy the Kid. Within hours of the shooting, a nearby justice of the peace formed a six-person coroner’s jury that interviewed Maxwell and Garrett, examined the body and crime scene and certified that the dead man was indeed William H. “Billy the Kid” Bonney.'
So, with that in mind Garret was granted the $500 reward, I would say that the important thing was that the justice of the peace examined the body along with other members of the jury, perhaps that was all that it took to make it official, no need for photos or any requirement to move the body. I'm guessing that this was an episode that most people were relieved to see ended.

There is one other thing that stands out, Stahl argues that reports of Billy the kid escaping didn't really surface until the 1920's.
 

rebel brit

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I think this provides an answer.
In more recent times, a chap by the name of Stahl petitioned the courts for an official Death certificate for Billy the Kid, he based his petition on eyewitness accounts from Maxwell, Garrett’s posse and Fort Sumner residents and friends of Billy the Kid, that had arrived at the scene shortly after the shooting and confirmed that the body was that of the Billy.
Stahl raises an important point, he claims that no single person that was at Fort Sumner at the time of Billy's death ever denied that Garret had killed Billy.
'Stahl says that in 1880s New Mexico a coroner’s jury report was considered the equivalent of an official death certificate today, and just such a report was issued for Billy the Kid. Within hours of the shooting, a nearby justice of the peace formed a six-person coroner’s jury that interviewed Maxwell and Garrett, examined the body and crime scene and certified that the dead man was indeed William H. “Billy the Kid” Bonney.'
So, with that in mind Garret was granted the $500 reward, I would say that the important thing was that the justice of the peace examined the body along with other members of the jury, perhaps that was all that it took to make it official, no need for photos or any requirement to move the body. I'm guessing that this was an episode that most people were relieved to see ended.

There is one other thing that stands out, Stahl argues that reports of Billy the kid escaping didn't really surface until the 1920's.
Many thanks for that, I wasn't aware of these details. :thumbsup:
 

Mike Serpa

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Just found this old picture in the attic.................. starting bids at $1.000,000 :wavespin:

View attachment 167777

Great thread .
One thing that puzzles me is why ,when it was common practice to take a photo as proof, was there no picture taken of Billy's dead body .
If Pat Garrett was responsible for tracking down and capturing or killing Billy why when the job was done didn't he transport the body back to Lincoln?
A face only a mother could love!
 

Nathanb1

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Thank you for posting those pictures.
I was thinking of the grave of Brushy Bill Roberts and the grave at Fort Sumner. The town of Lincoln is definitely somewhere I would like to visit. I have watched quite a few online vids of people visiting the original grave site but unfortunately they weren't allowed to film inside the museum, its a shame that its gone.
Ummmm...I grew up near Hico. I was there a LOT. My dad was a Billy the Kid nut. Nobody knew squat about Brushy Bill or cared until the danged movie came out (which is nice because Kiefer Sutherland and Lou Diamond Phillips, but is a steaming pile of dog poop as far as facts).
 
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