New Historical Marker on the Slave Trade

cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Right here.
We must be reading different things, " While there was active demand for negroes, there was nevertheless, almost from the first strong opposition. "
My interpretation is that there was strong opposition.
The sentence that says,
"This is evident from the fact that during the colonial period the Pennsylvania Assembly passed a long series of acts imposing restrictions upon the traffic."
I take it to mean, the Pennsylvania Assembly passed strong restrictions on the trafficking of shaves.
Perhaps you have a different interpretation.
When pen I read a sentence that says " the 1712 Assembly very boldly passed an act to prevent importation, seeking to accomplish this by making duty of twenty pounds per head. The law was quickly repealed in England, the Crown not being disposed to tolerate such independent action, nor willing to allow interference with The African Companies trade."
My take is the Pennsylvania Assembly attempted to raise the duty on slaves but the Crown overruled them.
Maybe you can enlighten me.

Nowhere does it say the Dutch opposed it. Where did you read the Dutch opposed it?
 

damYankee

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 12, 2011
Nowhere does it say the Dutch opposed it. Where did you read the Dutch opposed it?
Cash are you messing with me? Read it yourself I'm not going chase my tail for you.
The booklet is self explanatory, the very first paragraph lays out the "Dutch" who. I refer to.
If you are spoiling for a fight look elsewhere. I have a life.
 

JPK Huson 1863

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Location
Central Pennsylvania
I'm really happy to see this marker. When I was a kid, Penn was taught as this holy figure, so pristine and singular you're unsurprised by the gazillion foot statue you bump smack into on field trips to the state museum, in Harrisburg. Slavery? What black people in colonial Pennsylvania? I remember bumping into the information later, as a kid and thinking it had to be a big mistake- not William Penn! Dad then clued me in how he also sold the Germans down the Susquehanna River, somehow that statue got a lot smaller.

It simply cannot be anyone's business how the other guy gets to claim their place in our History- or where, or how much. Given the horrendous nature of African Americans' forced immigration here in Pennsylvania, a paltry little sign is kind of pitiful- but at least something.
 

Two Eyed Jack

Corporal
Joined
Jul 9, 2016
Location
South Carolina
I'm really happy to see this marker. When I was a kid, Penn was taught as this holy figure, so pristine and singular you're unsurprised by the gazillion foot statue you bump smack into on field trips to the state museum, in Harrisburg. Slavery? What black people in colonial Pennsylvania? I remember bumping into the information later, as a kid and thinking it had to be a big mistake- not William Penn! Dad then clued me in how he also sold the Germans down the Susquehanna River, somehow that statue got a lot smaller.

It simply cannot be anyone's business how the other guy gets to claim their place in our History- or where, or how much. Given the horrendous nature of African Americans' forced immigration here in Pennsylvania, a paltry little sign is kind of pitiful- but at least something.

There was another thread about war not being fair. The same can be said for history. As a matter of fact, if history were fair, there would be road markers everywhere for us engineers.
 

cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Right here.
Cash are you messing with me? Read it yourself I'm not going chase my tail for you.
The booklet is self explanatory, the very first paragraph lays out the "Dutch" who. I refer to.
If you are spoiling for a fight look elsewhere. I have a life.

Anyone reading the dissertation can see it doesn't say who opposed slavery, just that there was opposition. It doesn't say the Dutch opposed slavery.

Footnote 1 of the source you provided says, "The 'Proposed Freedoms and Exemptions for New Netherland,' 1640, say, 'The Company shall exert itself to provide the Patroons and Colonists, on their order with as many Blacks as possible.' "

Page 17 of the source you provided says, "It is probable that slavery existed among the Dutch of New Netherland, and possibly among the Swedes along the Delaware."

Here's some food for thought: the sentence I edited it was a dig at another poster. Deleting it in no way alters the meaning of your post, or loses any of the information you post. This dig was superfluous to your post, unnecessary to convey your meaning, an inefficiency. Try to think how many of your posts include similar inefficiencies.
Matt McKeon, posted as moderator


The fact is enslaved black people were imported into Pennsylvania by Dutch and Swedes, as the marker correctly says.
 
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Bee

Captain
Asst. Regtl. Quartermaster Gettysburg 2017
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
I'm really happy to see this marker. When I was a kid, Penn was taught as this holy figure, so pristine and singular you're unsurprised by the gazillion foot statue you bump smack into on field trips to the state museum, in Harrisburg. Slavery? What black people in colonial Pennsylvania? I remember bumping into the information later, as a kid and thinking it had to be a big mistake- not William Penn! Dad then clued me in how he also sold the Germans down the Susquehanna River, somehow that statue got a lot smaller.

It simply cannot be anyone's business how the other guy gets to claim their place in our History- or where, or how much. Given the horrendous nature of African Americans' forced immigration here in Pennsylvania, a paltry little sign is kind of pitiful- but at least something.

I like this quote regarding motivation for putting up the signs:

“The antidote to feel-good history is not feel-bad history but honest and inclusive history.”
James W. Loewen
 
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Potomac Pride

Sergeant Major
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Location
Georgia
I have been looking at the database of South Carolina markers as recommended. The vast majority of them are about white people, not slaves or other blacks. Also, many of them seem describe pretty uneventful stuff.

On the grounds of the South Carolina State House in Columbia there is a monument to African Americans.
 

C. Kelp

Retired User
Joined
Aug 7, 2016
Location
wherever I go there I am
When you put it that way, yes I agree that hiding oppression is bad, and I'm actually surprised but glad to see all enslaved people getting their due. If emotional survival meant putting yourself into your work and becoming the best bricklayer, stonemason or finish carpenter that you could be, then that was a triumph over circumstances, a transcendence of talent over evil, and deserves more than a postwar sneer about Uncle Tom working for the man.

In the Ten Commandments, most people don't think about what a manservant and maidservant really were.

P. 28-29 http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/moa/ABT7160.0001.001?rgn=main;view=fulltext
"The essential principles of the great Moral Law delivered to Moses by God himself, are set forth in what is called the Tenth Commandment, ...: 'Manservants and maid-servants,' are distinctly consecrated as property, and guaranteed to man for his exclusive benefit--proof that slavery was ordained by God himself. I have seen learned dissertations from the pens of Antislavery men--and I expect to hear one equally learned, before this discussion closes--setting forth that the term 'servant'and not 'slave' is used here. To this I reply, once for all, that both the Hebrew and Greek words translated 'servant,' mean 'slave' also, and are more frequently used in this sense than in the former."

The reverend pointed out that it was a sin to covet your neighbor's slaves, but also...

"The visionary notions of piety and philanthropy entertained by many men at the North, lead them to ... violate the tenth Commandment, by stealing our 'men-servants and maid-servants' and running them into what they call free territory, upon their under-ground railroads!"

There are lots of unfortunate facts all around. The world didn't used to be a nice place, or I should say, it was a less nice place. Not that it is nice now, but sometimes we forget how much progress the Enlightenment made, just in the last 250 years.
i'm sorry , you lost me, what exactly are you trying to say ? first paragraph : who said anything about the "best" ? they did what they had to do to survive.
the rest : what ? where did this come from ? are you trying to say that the bible sanctions slavery and the north is guilty of stealing ?
is the world a better place ? native americans might not agree.
 

kholland

Captain
Retired Moderator
Joined
Feb 13, 2011
Location
Howard County, Maryland
Cash are you messing with me? Read it yourself I'm not going chase my tail for you.
The booklet is self explanatory, the very first paragraph lays out the "Dutch" who. I refer to.
If you are spoiling for a fight look elsewhere. I have a life.
First off, it is not a "booklet" at 160 plus pages. And here is the only mention of the Dutch in the first paragraph.
"There were negroes in the region around the Delaware River before Pennsylvania was founded, in the days of the Dutch and the Swedes." Just a bare bones mention of the region. And unless you surmise from the names mentioned in the paragraph what nationality they were it is unclear what "The Dutch " thought.
 
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C. Kelp

Retired User
Joined
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Location
wherever I go there I am
There was another thread about war not being fair. The same can be said for history. As a matter of fact, if history were fair, there would be road markers everywhere for us engineers.
if we take down all the markers commemorating african-american activities, will that put up any markers dedicated to engineers ? your efforts would be better spent advocating for engineers than disparaging blacks.
if history is not fair than it must be inaccurate and therefore not real history.
 

USS ALASKA

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
I would bet that a large portion of people who read that sign will state or think to themselves that they didn't know Pennsylvania had slavery in the past.


Indeed sir. I agree. And given Philly's importance as a port in that time frame, is does make sense that slaves were disembarked there for trans-shipment to other areas west / east / north of the yet to be named Mason-Dixon line, Pennsylvania and Delaware. With the horrible inter-colony / state terrestrial transportation system, I would imagine that you would want to land ANY ship-borne cargo as close to the end destination as possible. I would think that Baltimore / Richmond / Portsmouth could handle traffic for the Maryland / Virginia area.

Cheers,
USS ALASKA
 

James B White

Captain
Honored Fallen Comrade
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
i'm sorry , you lost me, what exactly are you trying to say ? first paragraph : who said anything about the "best" ? they did what they had to do to survive.
the rest : what ? where did this come from ? are you trying to say that the bible sanctions slavery and the north is guilty of stealing ?
is the world a better place ? native americans might not agree.
First paragraph: I was giving an example of how an enslaved person might cope with slavery psychologically. A generation or so ago, say the 1960s-70s, he would be criticized as an Uncle Tom. Blacks in particular didn't like the idea that some slaves were historically known to obediently work for their masters, even doing excellent work. That's the era I grew up in.

But I'm glad to see we're moving beyond that and remembering all enslaved people now. For example, going with the example I used--a slave doing excellent work doesn't necessarily mean the slave was a sucker giving extra value to his evil master. It might be the only way he had to cope psychologically with having everything taken away: family, manhood, autonomy, pride. Building beautiful things, like stone or wood architectural ornaments, can be its own reward, despite the master benefiting too.

The rest: I wasn't sure what the meaning was behind podad's non sequitur, "Even the Ten Commandments need to be displayed in more places," but I thought I'd make an on topic comment tying it together with slavery by quoting a period reverend, who reminded his listeners/readers that the commandments ordered owners of slaves to be left in peace. He made the case exactly as you said, that the Ten Commandments sanctioned slavery and the north was stealing if they coveted the slaves even to free them. If we put the Ten Commandments up in more places, I think it would be good to reinterpret it too, and where appropriate, point out that it was a document used by rich white guys to promote slavery, rather than simply standing in awe of it like we used to with William Penn, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Christopher Columbus, etc.

If one compares native American life today to, let's say, 1880, then not being killed by US soldiers is a plus. The Enlightenment gave us "all men are created equal" but it took centuries for it to sink in. There's gradually been an acceptance of the fact that native peoples deserve the same respect as whites, though it's too late to undo all the damage, and that having slaves is wrong, though again we can't erase what happened.

Hope that's a little clearer.
 
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C. Kelp

Retired User
Joined
Aug 7, 2016
Location
wherever I go there I am
Hope that's a little clearer.
yes it is and i think that for the most part we agree. i just want to point out that you are giving a european, or white anglo, perspective . africans and native americans of the time and many may still wish that europeans had never come to america or africa in the first place. as to the quality of slave labor.... there have been uncle toms since the dawn of civilization. today we call them brown-nosers and suck-ups. there could be a myriad of reasons for doing good or bad work. they had no say in choosing what endeavors in which to participate . i am sure that many a massa got a little extra something in their supper. the enlightenment did not make it to the deep antebellum south, rather the opposite. as evidenced on this forum, it may never reach some people.
 

damYankee

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 12, 2011
Anyone reading the dissertation can see it doesn't say who opposed slavery, just that there was opposition. It doesn't say the Dutch opposed slavery.

Footnote 1 of the source you provided says, "The 'Proposed Freedoms and Exemptions for New Netherland,' 1640, say, 'The Company shall exert itself to provide the Patroons and Colonists, on their order with as many Blacks as possible.' "

Page 17 of the source you provided says, "It is probable that slavery existed among the Dutch of New Netherland, and possibly among the Swedes along the Delaware."

Here's some food for thought: the sentence I edited it was a dig at another poster. Deleting it in no way alters the meaning of your post, or loses any of the information you post. This dig was superfluous to your post, unnecessary to convey your meaning, an inefficiency. Try to think how many of your posts include similar inefficiencies.
Matt McKeon, posted as moderator


The fact is enslaved black people were imported into Pennsylvania by Dutch and Swedes, as the marker correctly says.

I never said anything to the contrary, I only meant that the assemblies organized by the colonists where the first to openly oppose slavery, for either religious or self interest, ( slavery as noted in the dissertation negatively affected laborers income) Which is supported by the several duty's that the Pennsylvania Assembly past on slaves, only to have the British Crown over rule them.
 

cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Right here.
I never said anything to the contrary, I only meant that the assemblies organized by the colonists where the first to openly oppose slavery, for either religious or self interest, ( slavery as noted in the dissertation negatively affected laborers income) Which is supported by the several duty's that the Pennsylvania Assembly past on slaves, only to have the British Crown over rule them.

Then would you clarify this statement?

"just by chance I was reading a dissertation about this very topic last week, if anyone cares to learn that the Dutch generally resisted the spread of the slave trade instead of going along with superficial history , here is your chance.
https://archive.org/stream/slaveryinpennsyl00turnrich#page/n3/mode/2up"

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/new-historical-marker-on-the-slave-trade.126421/page-2#post-1373164
 

damYankee

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 12, 2011
First off, it is not a "booklet" at 160 plus pages. And here is the only mention of the Dutch in the first paragraph.
"There were negroes in the region around the Delaware River before Pennsylvania was founded, in the days of the Dutch and the Swedes." Just a bare bones mention of the region. And unless you surmise from the names mentioned in the paragraph what nationality they were it is unclear what "The Dutch " thought.
I made the correction, i.e., the Dutch Colonist generally opposed slavery. Although many owned slaves, there was never the demand for the numbers of slaves in the colonies settled by Dutch, Swiss and Danish.
Reading accounts of house holds, it was very rare to find a household owning more than a few slaves.
 

damYankee

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 12, 2011
Then would you clarify this statement?

"just by chance I was reading a dissertation about this very topic last week, if anyone cares to learn that the Dutch generally resisted the spread of the slave trade instead of going along with superficial history , here is your chance.
https://archive.org/stream/slaveryinpennsyl00turnrich#page/n3/mode/2up"

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/new-historical-marker-on-the-slave-trade.126421/page-2#post-1373164
I corrected that
, I meant to write The Dutch Colonist, meaning those who actually colonized the land. Slaves in New Amsterdam were not uncommon. But few other settlers could afford them and most laborers and artisans had little use for them.
I take responsibility for my mistake, the way I phrased it, it sounded like all Dutch opposed slavery.
But the fact is as I presented the Pennsylvania Assembly was the first to attempted to curb Slavery through Duties.
Your turn.
 
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