New acquisition

Billw12280

Sergeant
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Alright uniform experts, I just received this frock coat that was sold as an 1879 Artillery officers frock coat. After I received the coat I started questioning the date. The buttons on the front of the coat are backmarked Shannon, Miller, and Grant which would date it post war but the bottom 2 buttons are NYSA and are not original to the coat which leads me to believe the other buttons may not be original either. The cuff buttons are D. EVANS SUPERFINE which could be ACW period? The interior of the coat has the greenish quilted lining and the interior pockets are brown material while the sleeve lining is plain white cotton. The epaulette attachment pieces also appear to have been added at a later date (you can see where they were sewn through the quilted lining). The coat measures 30" from shoulder to unhemmed bottom with the waistline being halfway down at the hip. The sleeves are ballooned to 8" and there is some gathering at the shoulder seam. Could this be an ACW frock that was altered to the 1879 regulations or is this just wishful thinking?
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Great coat, but someone else needs to give you better advice than I can give.
Thanks @major bill, I loved the look of the coat and haven't been able to buy an ACW coat (yet) so when this one was listed I jumped at it being the next best thing. It is gorgeous and will make a nice display. I am very happy with the coat either way but would be ecstatic if it turns out to be ACW.
 
From a costumers point of view, I can tell you it looks to be hand stitched. And yes, linings could be different for inner sleeve vs. main body. Sometimes this is so that an area that would see the most wear could be repaired/replaced with ease. The inner body of the coat would have been seen so the fabric would have been nicer. The arm hole repair is later in it’s life, as it is not very well done. If it’s not ACW, it is still a nicely made Frock.
 
Hum..... definitely hand stitching on the sleeve and collar attachments... can you post some pics of the buttons holes and close up of the collar? I think it’s still post CW but not 1879? I am definitely not a expert but love original wool! @Package4 ?! Enlighten us!
 
Very Nice post war coat but for the added insurance paging @Package4
 
From a costumers point of view, I can tell you it looks to be hand stitched. And yes, linings could be different for inner sleeve vs. main body. Sometimes this is so that an area that would see the most wear could be repaired/replaced with ease. The inner body of the coat would have been seen so the fabric would have been nicer. The arm hole repair is later in it’s life, as it is not very well done. If it’s not ACW, it is still a nicely made Frock.
Thank you, I agree it appears to be a nice quality, private purchase frock coat. I am very happy with it.
 
Hum..... definitely hand stitching on the sleeve and collar attachments... can you post some pics of the buttons holes and close up of the collar? I think it’s still post CW but not 1879? I am definitely not a expert but love original wool! @Package4 ?! Enlighten us!
As requested I am posting pics of the collar and button holes. The collar measures 1" at the narrowest point and widens to approximately 1.5". I am thinking if it is not 1879 and not ACW it would probably have to be early post ACW since from 1872-1879 the sleeves would have had gold lace added to them. For some reason I feel like it is not later than 1879 though, just a hunch. Nothing really to go on there.
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Yes machine buttons holes post war again great coat
Ok, the mystery has been solved. Thanks @1867crete! And to all other members who offered their assistance on this one. This is one of those items that can be very confusing for me. I know enough to be dangerous, luckily I bought this one with the understanding it was post ACW and not expecting anything different. Although it would have been nice if it were a converted ACW frock. Eventually I will be able to post my very first Civil War frock coat purchase, stay tuned. :bounce:
 
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Hum..... definitely hand stitching on the sleeve and collar attachments... can you post some pics of the buttons holes and close up of the collar? I think it’s still post CW but not 1879? I am definitely not a expert but love original wool! @Package4 ?! Enlighten us!
Sorry gang, I was out of pocket this weekend. I like the look, but the two tell tales are the button holes and the collar, button holes should be hand stitched and the collar the same. Sleeves at the elbow as wide or wider than 8". The skirt looks a little short as well. Only way to be definite is to see it in person unless machining stitched button holes which looks to be.
 
First let me preface this by saying I AM NOT questioning anybody's assessment of my coat and I accept that it is post ACW. That being said I ran across this item that was previously sold by the Horse Soldier.

http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/uniforms-and-cloth/uniforms/15564

In the description it states the button holes are machine sewn. I've been told the Horse Soldier is one of the trustworthy dealers so I would imagine their description is accurate? I know that the buttonhole machine was patented in the 1850s but it was not widely used until later. My question is, could privately purchased frock coats have had the machine sewn buttonholes?
 
First let me preface this by saying I AM NOT questioning anybody's assessment of my coat and I accept that it is post ACW. That being said I ran across this item that was previously sold by the Horse Soldier.

http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/uniforms-and-cloth/uniforms/15564

In the description it states the button holes are machine sewn. I've been told the Horse Soldier is one of the trustworthy dealers so I would imagine their description is accurate? I know that the buttonhole machine was patented in the 1850s but it was not widely used until later. My question is, could privately purchased frock coats have had the machine sewn buttonholes?
The Smalls are great people (Horse Soldier) and you will notice that in their description they do not say that it is a Civil War coat. They let the buyer know that it was at the Lee Museum, which had quite a bit of post war material as well as some incredible pieces from the battle of Gettysburg. The Lee Museum itself identified the coat as "Old Military Coat" and that it was removed to the basement.

Without seeing the coat in person it would be hard to determine, but the majority of ACW officer's frock coats were almost completely handsewn. Button hole stitching was found in overcoats and some very late/post war frock coats. As a rule 9 time out of 10 if machine sewn, it tends to be a post war coat. The collar should also be hand sewn and a height at the back of the collar of 1-1/4" or more, the skirt should be at least equal length as the body, or longer and the sleeves should be at minimum 8" wide at the elbow. Oh and generally the sleeve lining is a white onasburg, silk or linen, though very rarely a striped sleeve lining is found.

I have a coat almost identical to the one the Horse Soldier listed from Lee's Museum and treat it as post war, would love it to be different.
 
The Smalls are great people (Horse Soldier) and you will notice that in their description they do not say that it is a Civil War coat. They let the buyer know that it was at the Lee Museum, which had quite a bit of post war material as well as some incredible pieces from the battle of Gettysburg. The Lee Museum itself identified the coat as "Old Military Coat" and that it was removed to the basement.

Without seeing the coat in person it would be hard to determine, but the majority of ACW officer's frock coats were almost completely handsewn. Button hole stitching was found in overcoats and some very late/post war frock coats. As a rule 9 time out of 10 if machine sewn, it tends to be a post war coat. The collar should also be hand sewn and a height at the back of the collar of 1-1/4" or more, the skirt should be at least equal length as the body, or longer and the sleeves should be at minimum 8" wide at the elbow. Oh and generally the sleeve lining is a white onasburg, silk or linen, though very rarely a striped sleeve lining is found.

I have a coat almost identical to the one the Horse Soldier listed from Lee's Museum and treat it as post war, would love it to be different.

Ok, again thanks for sharing your knowledge. I just assumed (I seem to assume a lot :unsure:) because they had the coat listed at such a high price they were selling it as a Civil War era coat but you are correct, they did not identify it as such. Again I want to reiterate that I was not questioning anybody's knowledge as I always learn a lot here. I am studying up on the uniform aspect before I shell out the money for an ACW frock so I don't make a bad purchase. You all have always been very helpful.:bounce:
 
Ok, again thanks for sharing your knowledge. I just assumed (I seem to assume a lot :unsure:) because they had the coat listed at such a high price they were selling it as a Civil War era coat but you are correct, they did not identify it as such. Again I want to reiterate that I was not questioning anybody's knowledge as I always learn a lot here. I am studying up on the uniform aspect before I shell out the money for an ACW frock so I don't make a bad purchase. You all have always been very helpful.:bounce:
No offense taken, I was just up in Gettysburg last weekend and as knowledgeable as the team is at the Horse Soldier they do miss some things. I have a buddy who likes to show them their errors and I keep telling him to keep his mouth shut and just purchase the item.......Wes and Sam Small are very nice and informative........

I have another extremely knowledgeable buddy who says, if there is only one, you don't want to own it and if you have to make up a story about it don't buy it! Basically a story to justify the purchase of an item, that you are not sure about (transitional piece, just post war, experimental etc...)

I try to help others to not make the mistakes I made..........
 
No offense taken, I was just up in Gettysburg last weekend and as knowledgeable as the team is at the Horse Soldier they do miss some things. I have a buddy who likes to show them their errors and I keep telling him to keep his mouth shut and just purchase the item.......Wes and Sam Small are very nice and informative........

I have another extremely knowledgeable buddy who says, if there is only one, you don't want to own it and if you have to make up a story about it don't buy it! Basically a story to justify the purchase of an item, that you are not sure about (transitional piece, just post war, experimental etc...)

I try to help others to not make the mistakes I made..........
I have not made the trip to Gettysburg yet but hope to this year. I am afraid I will not get enough time to see everything I want to see. I have only been collecting for a couple of years but feel like I have a decent grasp on what is authentic and what is a reproduction. My issue sometimes comes with "is it Civil War or post Civil War" when I'm unsure I try to err on the side of post ACW which is ok for me right now being a novice collector. I have purchased so many books about uniforms and headgear over the past year but it can be very confusing for me. Thats why I defer to this forum to get advice from those more experienced than I. So far I have been pretty lucky with my purchases with the only head slap moment coming from when I bought a "cannonball" from a flea market dealer that had other items that looked to be authentic. I knew nothing about cannonballs at the time so when I got home I did some research. Much to my dismay I found that I had bought a $60 ore crusher . ..doh! Anyway I try my best to have a general idea about the items I buy but sometimes I just have to get a second opinion. I value everybody's insight here and am glad to be a part of this group.
 
My previous pictures were rather blurry and hard to see so I did some experimenting and I found a way to get better images of the seams and buttonholes. I am very encouraged by these new images and would say, to my eye, they appear to be hand sewn. The buttonholes on the breast are different than the ones on the cuff but they do appear like they could have been hand sewn as well. The back of the collar measures at exactly 1.25" and the elbows ,as originally stated, are 8" as @Package4 said it should be. Please let me know your thoughts on the new pictures. Pictures 1-4 are the collar, pictures 5-6 are the buttonhole backs on the cuff, picture 7 is the buttonhole front on the cuff and the last picture is the buttonhole back on the coat breast (this is a different style buttonhole so it's hard to see the stitches.)
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