Restricted National Cathedral to Replace Confederate-Themed Stained Glass With Art Dedicated to Racial Justice

Pete Longstreet

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I don't see an issue with this. Both glass pieces were removed in 2017. Lee's was put in a museum. Wonder what happened to Jackson's...
 
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unionblue

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Historical diversity is a good thing. Removing ones to replace with anothers is not diversity.
This is not a "begin all, end all" statement.

Confederate legacies and the feel good heritage is having a tough time facing actual, historical, fact.

The idea that images of men who fought for slavery, and there is no other interpretation for them, does not belong in a house of worship, especially the National Cathedral of a united country.

It was time.

Unionblue
 

GwilymT

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Should have kept what was there and added some new glass
too bad our nation removes its history in order to add other
I don’t think it’s removing history so much as correcting a mistake. Lee and Jackson were enemies of the United States and there is no reason for enemies of the United States to have a place of honor in the national cathedral of the United States.

I really don’t get the whole “removing/erasing history” argument. It’s not like everyone is going to forget that Lee & Jackson were military leaders of a disastrous and failed rebellion against the United States for the expressed purpose of protecting slavery. I think the history is pretty safe. At the end of the day, that’s who they were and what they did and not having a place of honor in the national cathedral will not change it. Certainly both men had admirable qualities and if folks want to hold them in high regard they certainly can. However, neither has a claim to a place of honor in the national cathedral of the United States.

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Andersonh1

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This is obviously yet another in the long line of erasing historical items from the landscape, and I hope these windows are not destroyed, but put on display in a museum where people can see them. But I'm of a different mind in this instance than I usually am on removals, since I don't think a church or cathedral has any business glorifying anyone other than God since it's not a secular building, so I wouldn't have put anyone from our history in the stained glass to begin with. Replacing Lee and Jackson with social justice scenes would be just as inappropriate, in my view.
 

rerobins

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This is obviously yet another in the long line of erasing historical items from the landscape, and I hope these windows are not destroyed, but put on display in a museum where people can see them. But I'm of a different mind in this instance than I usually am on removals, since I don't think a church or cathedral has any business glorifying anyone other than God since it's not a secular building, so I wouldn't have put anyone from our history in the stained glass to begin with. Replacing Lee and Jackson with social justice scenes would be just as inappropriate, in my view.
Interesting point and it reminds me of my visit to St. Paul’s cathedral in London for Easter 2 years ago. I was shocked at the number of statues and memorials to Britain’s war hero’s. It is quite impressive and humbling. Maybe if every war they fought in were in pursuit of the greater good of Christian civilization they would be justified? Did not particularly bother me.
 

Viper21

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The idea that images of men who fought for slavery, and there is no other interpretation for them, does not belong in a house of worship, especially the National Cathedral of a united country.
Any serious student of Lee, & Jackson knows, these were two very religious men. While it is true, even with their years of service in the US military, they are both best known for their service in the CS Army. However, looking in to the men themselves, it doesn't take long to figure out their personal faith was paramount in their lives. I'd dare say, the most important thing to both of them.

When on a recent tour of Jackson's HQ in Winchester, our docent made mention of the fact that, Jackson was known to attend every church in town, & go to every available service possible, regardless of denomination. She went on to say that, he could quote the sermons from each preacher later in the week, if asked about the services.

My point is, to say "there is no other interpretation for them", strikes me as aloof to who they were as men.
 

Booklady

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Interesting point and it reminds me of my visit to St. Paul’s cathedral in London for Easter 2 years ago. I was shocked at the number of statues and memorials to Britain’s war hero’s. It is quite impressive and humbling. Maybe if every war they fought in were in pursuit of the greater good of Christian civilization they would be justified? Did not particularly bother me.
It could also be appropriate, since it's an Anglican -- the Church of England -- church, to feature heroes of the country and not just Biblical figures. Perhaps that's the case. I would like to see St. Paul's and its statues and memorials to Britain's war heroes. I hate that statues of the great Winston Churchill are being removed (or defaced). Sorry...don't mean to derail or go off topic.
 

GwilymT

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This is obviously yet another in the long line of erasing historical items from the landscape, and I hope these windows are not destroyed, but put on display in a museum where people can see them. But I'm of a different mind in this instance than I usually am on removals, since I don't think a church or cathedral has any business glorifying anyone other than God since it's not a secular building, so I wouldn't have put anyone from our history in the stained glass to begin with. Replacing Lee and Jackson with social justice scenes would be just as inappropriate, in my view.
From what I understand, the Lee window has been moved to a museum- not sure about the Jackson window.

I do have to ask, how is removing a window from 1953 (nearly 100 years after the war) erasing the history of the civil war? If these windows are not there will everyone suddenly forget who Lee and Jackson were and what they did?
 

GwilymT

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Pittsburgh
Interesting point and it reminds me of my visit to St. Paul’s cathedral in London for Easter 2 years ago. I was shocked at the number of statues and memorials to Britain’s war hero’s. It is quite impressive and humbling. Maybe if every war they fought in were in pursuit of the greater good of Christian civilization they would be justified? Did not particularly bother me.
Many statues and monuments or memorials to Guy Fawkes, Jacobites, or Irish Republicans in St. Paul’s?
 

unionblue

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Any serious student of Lee, & Jackson knows, these were two very religious men. While it is true, even with their years of service in the US military, they are both best known for their service in the CS Army. However, looking in to the men themselves, it doesn't take long to figure out their personal faith was paramount in their lives. I'd dare say, the most important thing to both of them.

When on a recent tour of Jackson's HQ in Winchester, our docent made mention of the fact that, Jackson was known to attend every church in town, & go to every available service possible, regardless of denomination. She went on to say that, he could quote the sermons from each preacher later in the week, if asked about the services.

My point is, to say "there is no other interpretation for them", strikes me as aloof to who they were as men.
Your point has merit.
@Viper21 ,

I have read where many religious men participated in the Crusades to free Jerusalem from the infidels who committed all manner of horrors on enemy warriors and civilians alike, to include women and children.

Lee and Jackson had their faith, I will grant you that, but it was their beliefs that led them into a rebellion against their country and for the preservation of slavery, with that faith providing cover for those wrongs. Maybe Jackson went to church every chance he got, fine and dandy, but he always told his men to shoot and kill the brave ones.

No, their faith provides no cover for their actions during the rebellion to me.

That's the point in my saying there is no other interpretation for their actions.
 
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Andersonh1

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I do have to ask, how is removing a window from 1953 (nearly 100 years after the war) erasing the history of the civil war?

It's part of the same pattern we've seen over the past few years of removing reminders of American history from the landscape. It's not an isolated incident to be considered strictly on its own merits, though as I said I think there are circumstances here that are different from a battlefield or courthouse lawn monument. You could say that removing any memorial does not erase actual history, but if we don't need reminders of our history, why do we have any monuments at all? They serve an important purpose. "Lest we forget..." is a phrase I hear often with regard to Confederate memorials, and I think it's a valid warning.

When I visited Gettysburg a few years back, it clarified some of this for me. Those monuments on that battlefield drove home that two armies had once been there better than any marker or plaque ever could have. Did I need any of them to tell me that a battle had been fought there? No, I already knew that. But the presence of a physical object on that field representing a portion of those armies made it real to me in a way that I can't quite describe.

I think the removal of monuments from the landscape does have an effect on historical awareness and memory, and I think that's the goal here, ultimately.
 
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