Lee Myth of a kindly General Lee

He lied. He said he would never fight against the Union. He also said he would only defend Virginia. He very quickly became a high ranking confederate officer. He accepted assignment to South Carolina. He fought against the Union. He participated in the West Virginia campaign, which was fighting against the Union. It didn't just begin when he took over the ANV.

Well, it began with him resigning his commission, didn't it? I'm outta here pretty much says it. But lie? Don't think so. When he said that, he meant that. Circumstances changed.

Just a little aside - what do you suppose would have been the reaction if he had decided to stay with the Union? A Lee do that? Would the Union have really trusted him? They suspected Thomas just the same way Pemberton was suspected on the other side. (Especially when you lose big!)
 
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Well, it began with him resigning his commission, didn't it?

What "it?"


I'm outta here pretty much says it. But lie? Don't think so. When he said that, he meant that. Circumstances changed.

Lee was a smart guy, and I assume he knew the definition of "never." I assume he knew what he meant when he said he would defend Virginia. If all he wanted to do was defend Virginia, then he would refuse a confederate commission, because as a smart guy he would know that would obligate him to do more than just defend Virginia.

He lied.


Just a little aside - what do you suppose would have been the reaction if he had decided to stay with the Union? A Lee do that? Would the Union have really trusted him? They suspected Thomas just the same way Pemberton was suspected on the other side. (Especially when you lose big!)

Lees did do that. Members of Lee's own family stayed loyal to and fought for the Union. You're simply relying on you imagination and what you hope to be true here instead of what actually happened.
 
As I pointed out elsewhere, when Lee resigned his commission on April 20, 1861 it was already clear that the incoming Administration would act to suppress the rebellion. Further, Virginia had decided to secede on the afternoon of April 17, 1861, a decision announced shortly before noon the next day.
Given these facts, Lee must have suspected that he would be called upon to serve in the rebel force and his claim that he would fight only in defense of Virginia seems hollow.

It seems impracticable, at least, but things moved faster than maybe Lee expected. But there was the little matter of when his resignation was accepted. That was the 24th. He accepted command of the Virginia militia on the 22nd, think it was. Technically, he was still in the US army when he accepted a rebel command!
 
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What "it?"




Lee was a smart guy, and I assume he knew the definition of "never." I assume he knew what he meant when he said he would defend Virginia. If all he wanted to do was defend Virginia, then he would refuse a confederate commission, because as a smart guy he would know that would obligate him to do more than just defend Virginia.

He lied.




Lees did do that. Members of Lee's own family stayed loyal to and fought for the Union. You're simply relying on you imagination and what you hope to be true here instead of what actually happened.

What 'it'? :unsure: Since I don't know how to explain a moot point any mooter, I'll let you have it!

Didn't lie. I don't think we're ever going to make headway on that! Ain't giving it to you, though. :wink:

True enough, there were Lees on the Union side. A cousin was a Union admiral - not a bad job, either - a nephew who took a potshot at Uncle Robert. But where did his sons fight? Cousins and nephews might be one thing, but shooting at your sons is another. No, Lee really didn't have a decision to make but it was a very hard one anyway.
 
Thanks for those references - been looking for them! I still don't think I misinterpreted what he said. Suppose Twiggs had been a little later taking over for Lee down there in Texas? Suppose McCulloch demanded the keys to the federal arsenal from Lee instead of Twiggs? Would Lee have said here you go, Bob, like Twiggs did or would he have done what he said he'd do - defend the United States as long as he held a commission? Well, he would have defended the US. As it was, somebody demanded his surrender along the way and he said he wasn't surrendering to anybody - so they made his luggage surrender. (Sorry - Josey Wales is a favorite!)
Sounds like the subject of a new, 'What If,' thread....
 
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I didn't say he was called to Scott's office....
Thanks for your response.
Not to belabor the point, but you implied it by contrasting Lee's meeting with Scott with the lack of meetings with others, saying "Beauregarde wasn't called to his office, for example, nor was Joe Johnston".
 
Thanks for your response.
I don't know why you chose to respond in such a manner, but, as long as you did, don't forget the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker....
If you can't understand me today, why do you think you can understand anything about the South in 1860. Also those slave women that does that good old Southern cooking which is so famous today.
 
Sounds like the subject of a new, 'What If,' thread....

Could be! Except that implies that you think it's fantasy. It's not, and we're back to Lee and his loyalties. Twiggs gave up the department without so much as a squeak then scuttled off to retirement - or something. If the secessionists in Texas had been a couple weeks earlier, or Twiggs had a delay in arriving to replace Lee - at any rate, if Lee had been in command in Texas at the time the secessionists seized federal property, he would not have co-operated. That's why I've always figured Ft Sumter would have been in Texas then.
 
None of which relates to the fact that he lied when he said [if he actually said it] he would never fight against the Union.

Lee said the following, and I think it's clear that the bottom line for him was not the Union, but Virginia. The phrase, with slight variations, "Save in defense of my native State, I have no desire ever again to draw my sword" occurs over and over.

Arlington, Virginia, April 20, 1861.
" My Dear Sister: I am grieved at my inability to see you. ... I have been waiting for a 'more convenient season,' which has brought to many before me deep and lasting regret. Now we are in a state of war which will yield to nothing. The whole South is in a state of revolution, into which Virginia, after a long struggle, has been drawn; and though I recognise no necessity for this state of things, and would have forborne and pleaded to the end for redress of grievances, real or supposed, yet in my own person I had to meet the question whether I should take part against my
native State.

"With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword. I know you will blame me; but you must think as kindly of me as you can, and believe that I have endeavoured to do what I thought right.

"To show you the feeling and struggle it has cost me, I send you a copy of my letter of resignation. I have no time for more. May God guard and protect you and yours, and shower upon you everlasting blessings, is the prayer of your devoted brother, R. E. Lee

---------------

Arlington, Virginia, April 20, 1860.
"My Dear Brother Smith: The question which was the subject of my earnest consultation with you on the 18th inst. has in my own mind been decided. After the most anxious inquiry as to the correct course for me to pursue, I concluded to resign, and sent in my resignation this morning. I wished to wait till the Ordinance of Secession should be acted on by the people of Virginia; but war seems to have commenced, and I am liable at any time to be ordered on duty which I could not conscientiously perform. To save me from such a position, and to prevent the necessity of resigning under orders, I had to act at once, and before I could see you again on the subject, as I had wished. I am now a private citizen, and have no other ambition than to remain at home. Save in defense of my native State, I have no desire ever again to draw my sword. I send you my warmest love.
"Your affectionate brother,
"R.E.Lee."

-----------------

Arlington, Virginia, April 20, 1861.
"General: Since my interview with you on the 18th inst. I have felt that I ought no longer to retain my commission in the Army. I therefore tender my resignation, which I request you will recommend for acceptance. It would have been presented at once but for the struggle it has cost me to separate myself from a service to which I have devoted the best years of my life, and all the ability I possessed.

" During the whole of that time — more than a quarter of a century — I have experienced nothing but kindness
from my superiors and a most cordial friendship from my comrades. To no one, General, have I been as much
indebted as to yourself for uniform kindness and consideration, and it has always been my ardent desire to merit your approbation. I shall carry to the grave the most grateful recollections of your kind consideration, and your name and fame shall always be dear to me.

" Save in the defense of my native State, I never desire again to draw my sword.

" Be pleased to accept my most earnest wishes for the continuance of your happiness and prosperity, and believe me most truly yours,

"(Signed)

"R. E. Lee."
I tend to question whether Lee would have said anything about not fighting the Union, because it would have been obvious to him if he had to "draw his sword", that it would be used against the Union. And he clearly expressed that he would defend Virginia by force. I think Lee did not want to fight against the Union, but was ready to do so if he felt it was necessary.
 
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Lee said the following, and I think it's clear that the bottom line for him was not the Union, but Virginia. The phrase, with slight variations, "Save in defense of my native State, I have no desire ever again to draw my sword" occurs over and over.

Arlington, Virginia, April 20, 1861.
" My Dear Sister: I am grieved at my inability to see you. ... I have been waiting for a 'more convenient season,' which has brought to many before me deep and lasting regret. Now we are in a state of war which will yield to nothing. The whole South is in a state of revolution, into which Virginia, after a long struggle, has been drawn; and though I recognise no necessity for this state of things, and would have forborne and pleaded to the end for redress of grievances, real or supposed, yet in my own person I had to meet the question whether I should take part against my
native State.

"With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword. I know you will blame me; but you must think as kindly of me as you can, and believe that I have endeavoured to do what I thought right.

"To show you the feeling and struggle it has cost me, I send you a copy of my letter of resignation. I have no time for more. May God guard and protect you and yours, and shower upon you everlasting blessings, is the prayer of your devoted brother, R. E. Lee

---------------

Arlington, Virginia, April 20, 1860.
"My Dear Brother Smith: The question which was the subject of my earnest consultation with you on the 18th inst. has in my own mind been decided. After the most anxious inquiry as to the correct course for me to pursue, I concluded to resign, and sent in my resignation this morning. I wished to wait till the Ordinance of Secession should be acted on by the people of Virginia; but war seems to have commenced, and I am liable at any time to be ordered on duty which I could not conscientiously perform. To save me from such a position, and to prevent the necessity of resigning under orders, I had to act at once, and before I could see you again on the subject, as I had wished. I am now a private citizen, and have no other ambition than to remain at home. Save in defense of my native State, I have no desire ever again to draw my sword. I send you my warmest love.
"Your affectionate brother,
"R.E.Lee."

-----------------

Arlington, Virginia, April 20, 1861.
"General: Since my interview with you on the 18th inst. I have felt that I ought no longer to retain my commission in the Army. I therefore tender my resignation, which I request you will recommend for acceptance. It would have been presented at once but for the struggle it has cost me to separate myself from a service to which I have devoted the best years of my life, and all the ability I possessed.

" During the whole of that time — more than a quarter of a century — I have experienced nothing but kindness
from my superiors and a most cordial friendship from my comrades. To no one, General, have I been as much
indebted as to yourself for uniform kindness and consideration, and it has always been my ardent desire to merit your approbation. I shall carry to the grave the most grateful recollections of your kind consideration, and your name and fame shall always be dear to me.

" Save in the defense of my native State, I never desire again to draw my sword.

" Be pleased to accept my most earnest wishes for the continuance of your happiness and prosperity, and believe me most truly yours,

"(Signed)

"R. E. Lee."
I tend to question whether Lee would have said anything about not fighting the Union, because it would have been obvious to him if he had to "draw his sword", that it would be used against the Union. And he clearly expressed that he would defend Virginia if necessary. I think Lee did not want to fight against the Union, but was ready to do so if he felt it was necessary.
heh, they were not Union it was "those people"?
 
The tragic error was that in attempting to defend Virginia General Lee's actions made Virginia into a battle ground.
Virginia lost territorial integrity immediately, and the commercial part of Richmond was burned during the evacuation of the city. In between those events Virginia was severely damaged.
 
The tragic error was that in attempting to defend Virginia General Lee's actions made Virginia into a battle ground.
Virginia lost territorial integrity immediately, and the commercial part of Richmond was burned during the evacuation of the city. In between those events Virginia was severely damaged.

The state voted to secede without him, and would have been invaded without him. Virginia would have raised an army and resisted, though it's doubtful they'd have done as well without Lee's capabilities in setting up a defense. I don't think Virginia could have avoided a lot of damage under the circumstances, whether or not Lee was involved. As it was, he gave them a fighting chance, while Johnston would probably have lost Richmond in 1862.
 
If you can't understand me today, why do you think you can understand anything about the South in 1860. Also those slave women that does that good old Southern cooking which is so famous today.
Thanks for your response.
The accepted rule is the writer is responsible for assuring the clarity of the message. But that assumes the intent was to communicate. It appears that was not your intent.
 
Your suggestion. Nothing stopping you from starting a new thread. :smile coffee:
Thanks for your response.
It was a remark, not a suggestion. I have little to no interest in 'What If' threads. I will leave it to someone else to originate if they desire.
 
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