More silly guys who worried that slavery would tear the country apart

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
Thanks for these comments.

You would be welocome for them if you could answer the question they contained, but I cannot accept them as they come across as insincere.

It is my job to put forth the Southern Cause as best as I can, not to correct other's history homework.

In other words, you cannot provide an excuse for the slaveholding South committing many, many, acts of war and aggression before the firing by Confederate forces on Ft. Sumter.

So in effect, you are more interested in cheering for a particular "side" than the learning of actual history.

Got it.

Unionblue
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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The fledgling CS opted to seize mail, currency, mints, armories, federal vessels etc long before Ft Sumter was fired upon. The troops were moved to FT Sumter to keep them out of physical reach of the rabid militant secessionists who were calling for their heads on a platter. It kept them from getting ticked and shooting some of the provocateurs; which is what the secessionists wanted.

The idea that moving less than 100 soldiers and their families to an isolated post was hostile is purposefully naive or worse. US soldiers were ill used, at best, by the CS in the opening months of their Secession movement. They never had any intent of a peaceful separation. They wanted war and they got it. They opted to poke the sleeping giant and the giant poked back.
Just like any revolutionary sovereign would do.

At least we get a partially correct answer from the reply to @johan_steele 's post above.

At least we have the admission that the acts mentioned were revolutionary and not some form of constitutional hocus pocus.

Good work, @johan_steele !

Sincerely,
Unionblue
 

CSA Today

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Location
Laurinburg NC
In other words, you cannot provide an excuse for the slaveholding South committing many, many, acts of war and aggression before the firing by Confederate forces on Ft. Sumter.

So in effect, you are more interested in cheering for a particular "side" than the learning of actual history.

Got it.

Unionblue
The actual history is these firing occurred on Confederate territory.
 
At the risk of extending this regurgitation of all things Fort Sumter, Anderson did not "forcefully" move into the fort. Although Andrson was prepared- the first men to cross to the Fort, a party under Doubleday, fixed bayonets- there was no trouble. They were met by both cheers and some hostility. Fifty-five laborers, loyal to the Union, were asked to stay. The remainder were taken into Charleston. All were paid by Anderson.
<David Detzer, Allegiance: Fort Sumter, Charleston, and the Beginning of the Civil War. (New York: Harcourt, Inc., 2001), pp. 118-119.>

"We went up the steps of the wharf in the face of an excited band of secession workmen, some of whom were armed with pistols. One or two Union men among them cheered, but some of the others said angrily: "What are these soldiers doing here? What is the meaning of this?" Ordering my men to charge bayonets, we drove the workmen into the center of the fort. I took possession of the guard-room commanding the main entrance and placed sentinels. Twenty minutes after, Seymour arrived with the rest of the men. Meantime Anderson had crossed in one of the engineer boats. As soon as the troops were all in we fired a cannon, to give notice of our arrival to the quartermaster, who had anchored at Fort Johnson with the schooners carrying the women and children. He immediately sailed up to the wharf and landed his passengers and stores. Then the workmen of secession sympathies were sent aboard the schooners to be taken ashore."
http://www.civilwarhome.com/doubledaysumter.htm
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Were the arms and munitions inside those arsenals the property of the federal or the state governments?


Once a state had seceded, the public property within its territorial limits was owned by that state. If, after the state joined the Confederate States of America it chose to transfer the control of that property to the Confederate States, that was its prerogative.
 
Once a state had seceded, the public property within its territorial limits was owned by that state. If, after the state joined the Confederate States of America it chose to transfer the control of that property to the Confederate States, that was its prerogative.

Care to show a state or federal statute that supports this? After all, when the United States won it's war against the British, it was through a treaty in 1783 that the British turned over its forts to the Americans although it took up until the early 1800's for the British to relinquish control of some of their prior military properties.
 

JerseyBart

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New Jersey
Sources please and show documentation that all the arms in those arsenals were the property of the Feds.
Care to show a state or federal statute that supports this? After all, when the United States won it's war against the British, it was through a treaty in 1783 that the British turned over its forts to the Americans although it took up until the early 1800's for the British to relinquish control of some of their prior military properties.
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/federal-property.137927/ See post 15.
 
Sources please and show documentation that all the arms in those arsenals were the property of the Feds.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


STATE OF FLORIDA, EXECUTIVE CHAMBER, Tallahassee, January 5, 1861.

SIR: Reposing special confidence in your patriotism, discretion, and integrity, I hereby authorize and empower you to raise a company of picked men and proceed to the Apalachicola River and seize and possess the arsenal, arms, ammunition, stores, buildings, and other property now in the possession of the General Government, and retain the same subject to my orders. You are requested to act with secrecy and discretion. You are further authorized to call out the Seventh Regiment Florida Militia for all aid in its power to render that you may deem necessary to retain occupation of said arsenal.
M. S. PERRY.
By the governor State Florida:
T. S. VILLEPIGUE,
Secretary of State.

O.R. Series I, Volume I, pt. I, pg. 332
_____________________________________________________________



SAINT AUGUSTINE, EAST FLORIDA, January 7, 1861.

SIR: I am obliged to perform what is to me a painful duty, viz, to report to the Chief of Ordnance that all the military stores at this place were seized this morning by the order of the governor of the State of Florida. A company of volunteer soldiers marched to the barracks and took possession of me, and demanded peaceable possession of the keys of the fort and magazine. I demanded them to show me their authority. An aide-de-camp of the governor showed me his letter of instructions authorizing him to seize the property, and directing him to use what force might be necessary.

Upon reflection I decided that the only alternative for me was to deliver the keys, under protest, and demand a receipt for the property. One thing certain, with the exception of the guns composing the armament of the water battery, the property seized is of no great value. The gentleman acting under the governor's instructions has promised to receipt to me for the stores.

I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
HENRY DOUGLAS,
Ordnance Sergeant, U. S. Army.
ibid., pg. 333

_______________________________________________________________


AUGUSTA ARSENAL, GA., January 25, 1861.

SIR: I have the honor to report that this post was surrendered to the authorities of the State of Georgia on a demand made by the governor in person, backed by a very superior force of the military of the State. The company of Second U. S. Artillery stationed here is under orders for New York, and as we are required to evacuate the post as soon as practicable, I would respectfully recommend the immediate discharge of the detachment of Ordnance, and would request that four or six months' leave of absence be granted to me. It may be well in making the application for leave of absence to say that I have had none for fourteen years, with one exception, which I did avail myself of. Full and complete receipts will be taken for all the public property in my charge.
I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
JOHN M. GALT,
Military Storekeeper of Ordnance.
ibid., pg. 323

_________________________________________________________________


SAVANNAH, January 28, 1861.
Captain WHITING,
U. S. Engineers:

SIR: I am instructed by the governor and commander-in-chief of the State of Georgia to take possession of Oglethorpe Barracks, in the name of the State of Georgia, and in your absence from this city possession has been taken. The occupants will not be disturbed at present, and you will please consider yourself at liberty to occupy, with your employes, such apartments as are necessary for your convenience while you are closing up your business here. The steamer Ida and appurtenance have also been taken possession of under the same authority. This, I believe, includes all the property held by you in the State of Georgia, as military engineer of the United States, but does not include any light-house property.

You have been already notified, informally, that Fort Pulaski and Jackson had been occupied by the troops of the State of Georgia under my command.
Very respectfully,
A. R. LAWTON,
Colonel, Commanding.
ibid., pg. 324

___________________________________________________________


MOUNT VERNON ARSENAL, January 4, 1861.

SIR: I have the honor to inform you that this arsenal was taken possession of by four companies of volunteers for Mobile at daylight this morning. I did not make, nor could I have made, any resistance, as they had scaled the walls and taken possession before I knew anything about the movement.

The governor has demanded all the public property, and his men now have entire possession of the arsenal.

I telegraphed to you to-day for orders as to what disposition is to be made of the enlisted men and of myself. If, unfortunately, my telegram should not be answered, I will wait here a few days in hopes of hearing from you; but in the event the mails should be stopped, I will discharge all those that desire it, and bring the others with me to Washington.

The men have not be paid, and I fear that now there is no prospect of it at present.

I shall probably leave here by the 11th instant, unless I should receive other orders. As it was impossible for me to hold this place with my seventeen men, I trust that the Department will not hold me responsible for this unexpected catastrophe.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. L. RENO,
Captain, Ordnance.
ibid., pg. 327
______________________________________________________________



Brevet Major, and Captain, First Artillery.

[EXECUTIVE OFFICE,
Baton Rouge, La., January 10, 1861.

SIR: The safety of the State of Louisiana demands that I take possession of all Government property within her limits. You are, therefore, summoned hereby to deliver up the barracks, arsenal, and public property now under your command.

With the large force at my disposal this demand will be enforced. Any attempt at defense on your part will be a rash sacrifice of life.

The highest consideration will be extended to yourself and command.
THOMAS O. MOORE
Governor and Commander-in-Chief Militia of Louisiana.
ibid., pg. 490
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
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Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
The actual history is these firing occurred on Confederate territory.

No, @CSA Today , it does not.

First, you have to have acknowledgement that an attempted rebellion owns any territory.

Second, there were southern slaveholding states who committed acts of war BEFORE they had even seceded from the United States.

Taking your bat, ball, glove, the other teams bats, ball and gloves, and the bleachers and half the ballfield does not mean you own it or it's now your territory.
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
Once a state had seceded, the public property within its territorial limits was owned by that state.

That's one excuse.

If, after the state joined the Confederate States of America it chose to transfer the control of that property to the Confederate States, that was its prerogative.

No, it's called theft.
 

19thGeorgia

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


STATE OF FLORIDA, EXECUTIVE CHAMBER, Tallahassee, January 5, 1861.

SIR: Reposing special confidence in your patriotism, discretion, and integrity, I hereby authorize and empower you to raise a company of picked men and proceed to the Apalachicola River and seize and possess the arsenal, arms, ammunition, stores, buildings, and other property now in the possession of the General Government, and retain the same subject to my orders. You are requested to act with secrecy and discretion. You are further authorized to call out the Seventh Regiment Florida Militia for all aid in its power to render that you may deem necessary to retain occupation of said arsenal.
M. S. PERRY.
By the governor State Florida:
T. S. VILLEPIGUE,
Secretary of State.

O.R. Series I, Volume I, pt. I, pg. 332

_____________________________________________________________



SAINT AUGUSTINE, EAST FLORIDA, January 7, 1861.

SIR: I am obliged to perform what is to me a painful duty, viz, to report to the Chief of Ordnance that all the military stores at this place were seized this morning by the order of the governor of the State of Florida. A company of volunteer soldiers marched to the barracks and took possession of me, and demanded peaceable possession of the keys of the fort and magazine. I demanded them to show me their authority. An aide-de-camp of the governor showed me his letter of instructions authorizing him to seize the property, and directing him to use what force might be necessary.

Upon reflection I decided that the only alternative for me was to deliver the keys, under protest, and demand a receipt for the property. One thing certain, with the exception of the guns composing the armament of the water battery, the property seized is of no great value. The gentleman acting under the governor's instructions has promised to receipt to me for the stores.

I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
HENRY DOUGLAS,
Ordnance Sergeant, U. S. Army.
ibid., pg. 333

_______________________________________________________________


AUGUSTA ARSENAL, GA., January 25, 1861.

SIR: I have the honor to report that this post was surrendered to the authorities of the State of Georgia on a demand made by the governor in person, backed by a very superior force of the military of the State. The company of Second U. S. Artillery stationed here is under orders for New York, and as we are required to evacuate the post as soon as practicable, I would respectfully recommend the immediate discharge of the detachment of Ordnance, and would request that four or six months' leave of absence be granted to me. It may be well in making the application for leave of absence to say that I have had none for fourteen years, with one exception, which I did avail myself of. Full and complete receipts will be taken for all the public property in my charge.
I am, sir, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
JOHN M. GALT,
Military Storekeeper of Ordnance.
ibid., pg. 323

_________________________________________________________________


SAVANNAH, January 28, 1861.
Captain WHITING,
U. S. Engineers:

SIR: I am instructed by the governor and commander-in-chief of the State of Georgia to take possession of Oglethorpe Barracks, in the name of the State of Georgia, and in your absence from this city possession has been taken. The occupants will not be disturbed at present, and you will please consider yourself at liberty to occupy, with your employes, such apartments as are necessary for your convenience while you are closing up your business here. The steamer Ida and appurtenance have also been taken possession of under the same authority. This, I believe, includes all the property held by you in the State of Georgia, as military engineer of the United States, but does not include any light-house property.

You have been already notified, informally, that Fort Pulaski and Jackson had been occupied by the troops of the State of Georgia under my command.
Very respectfully,
A. R. LAWTON,
Colonel, Commanding.
ibid., pg. 324

___________________________________________________________


MOUNT VERNON ARSENAL, January 4, 1861.

SIR: I have the honor to inform you that this arsenal was taken possession of by four companies of volunteers for Mobile at daylight this morning. I did not make, nor could I have made, any resistance, as they had scaled the walls and taken possession before I knew anything about the movement.

The governor has demanded all the public property, and his men now have entire possession of the arsenal.

I telegraphed to you to-day for orders as to what disposition is to be made of the enlisted men and of myself. If, unfortunately, my telegram should not be answered, I will wait here a few days in hopes of hearing from you; but in the event the mails should be stopped, I will discharge all those that desire it, and bring the others with me to Washington.

The men have not be paid, and I fear that now there is no prospect of it at present.

I shall probably leave here by the 11th instant, unless I should receive other orders. As it was impossible for me to hold this place with my seventeen men, I trust that the Department will not hold me responsible for this unexpected catastrophe.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
J. L. RENO,
Captain, Ordnance.
ibid., pg. 327
______________________________________________________________



Brevet Major, and Captain, First Artillery.

[EXECUTIVE OFFICE,
Baton Rouge, La., January 10, 1861.

SIR: The safety of the State of Louisiana demands that I take possession of all Government property within her limits. You are, therefore, summoned hereby to deliver up the barracks, arsenal, and public property now under your command.

With the large force at my disposal this demand will be enforced. Any attempt at defense on your part will be a rash sacrifice of life.

The highest consideration will be extended to yourself and command.
THOMAS O. MOORE
Governor and Commander-in-Chief Militia of Louisiana.
ibid., pg. 490
Thanks for posting these but they don't settle the question of who had ownership of the arms and other munitions within the forts and arsenals. Quotas of arms were due to the several states. Where were they kept? What was the purpose of the arsenals?
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Care to show a state or federal statute that supports this? After all, when the United States won it's war against the British, it was through a treaty in 1783 that the British turned over its forts to the Americans although it took up until the early 1800's for the British to relinquish control of some of their prior military properties.

Exactly. The treaty codified the practice and set the legal precedent for the Confederate Patriots. Or maybe you care to show me where the Rebels turned over all the forts to the British prior to negotiating the treaty?
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
Nope. Theft is the lawless act

Exactly, which is what Southern, slaveholding forces did way before another illegal act, firing on Ft. Sumter.

the unionists performed to regain the property.

I really think you may be a bit confused on who was robbed and was trying to actually prevent the theft of the Nation's property. Most of the forts, armories, and barracks, stolen from the United States of America, were manned mostly by single federal soldiers, and their families who lived with them at these post, performing the duties of an installation care-taker. I fail to see how one man could "regain the property" in the face of an armed, numerically superior, mob.

And Grand Theft at that.

Not even close to the historical acts of war and theft done by Southern, slaveholding forces.
 
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