Moral clarity regarding the Lawrence massacre and family relationshipps

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Yes, a common technique used, however, Gen. Order 11 arguably created more harm than good for the Union army. With some instances where Union civilian loyalists were not differentiated from the Confederate loyalists, Union support was frequently lost. Furthermore, the order itself was proof how ineffective the Union was at containing Confederate partisans before and after that point.
No doubt Order 11 is controversial so is the whole subject of Counterinsurgency strategy even among those who practice it.
James Erwin in his book "Guerrilla hunters in Civil War Missouri" argues that Order 11 was not given enough time to work and that pro Confederate civilians should not of been allowed to resettle so soon.
For those who argue that Order 11 was wrong then a fair question is how should the Union Army respond to the Laurence Massacre?
Leftyhunter
 
Yes, a common technique used, however, Gen. Order 11 arguably created more harm than good for the Union army. With some instances where Union civilian loyalists were not differentiated from the Confederate loyalists, Union support was frequently lost. Furthermore, the order itself was proof how ineffective the Union was at containing Confederate partisans before and after that point.
Here's a question that so far none of my friends have really been able to answer.
Based on the technology available to Union forces could the Union of fought a more humane and effective Counterinsurgency campaign and if so why didn't the Confederacy do so since there was quite a bit of Counterinsurgency in Southern states.
My thread Union vs CSA Guerrillas has many example of COIN in both Union and Confederate States.
Also what COIN campaign in any country say 50 years prior or after the Civil War was more humane or effective?
Even and especially to this day there is no way civilians are not going to suffer in a COIN conflict.
Leftyhunter
 
Quantril's Raiders and Guerrillas in Mo. Is what I mainly research. ......................... I wanted to ask if you or anyone might know how many, If any men from TX came back with them and joined in their fight?[/QUOT

In addition to my above post.
From my collection of information (trivia?) on Quantrill's guerrilla's, the name of the Texan who joined Quantrill was William Ridings, who was killed by fellow guerrilla, Joel Chiles ( who was the brother of "Jim Crow" Chiles, uncle of Pres. Truman). During the winter in TX 1864, Joel Chiles killed W.M. Ridings (17 years old, and the only guerrilla from TX) and wounded Fletch Taylor and William Basham. Basham then killed Chiles.
 
Thank you! This is Great information.
His name was William, some how that doesn't surprise me lol. So many Williams. Thanks again,
 
In my studying of Quantrill's roster, there may be one case where the picked up a recruit while they spent the winter in TX.
As far as assistance while in TX, I think the biggest advantage they received is not being chased around by the Federals.
No doubt Order 11 is controversial so is the whole subject of Counterinsurgency strategy even among those who practice it.
James Erwin in his book "Guerrilla hunters in Civil War Missouri" argues that Order 11 was not given enough time to work and that pro Confederate civilians should not of been allowed to resettle so soon.
For those who argue that Order 11 was wrong then a fair question is how should the Union Army respond to the Laurence Massacre?
Leftyhunter
 
Quantril's roster. Great I gotta see that. You've been very helpful thank you. I enjoy reading your post.
 
Quantril's roster. Great I gotta see that. You've been very helpful thank you. I enjoy reading your post.

I've got this very large spreadsheet of Q's roster which I keep on adding to it as I learn something new. Actually, it's a compilation of several rosters, any name that was listed by the various writers or former Q partisans who gave a name of someone who was somehow associated with Q's guerrillas. So far I'm at 650 names and not done yet.

The thing that started me in putting this compilation together was to determine the inter-relationships between the hard-core members who rode with Q. It's been estimated that approximately 40% of Q's men were related in some way to each other and I don't think that the estimate is wrong.
 
I've got this very large spreadsheet of Q's roster which I keep on adding to it as I learn something new. Actually, it's a compilation of several rosters, any name that was listed by the various writers or former Q partisans who gave a name of someone who was somehow associated with Q's guerrillas. So far I'm at 650 names and not done yet.

The thing that started me in putting this compilation together was to determine the inter-relationships between the hard-core members who rode with Q. It's been estimated that approximately 40% of Q's men were related in some way to each other and I don't think that the estimate is wrong.
I don't think that is wrong either. I keep having these connections in my research too. Even my own extended family. Very cool what your doing. Getting out a truer account is so important to researchers like us. Thank you. Lrrp up the good work, hope to see your list some day.
 
Did you have a question about my above post?
Leftyhunter
I wanted to comment on your question about what could have been done differently, but honestly my way of thinking doesn't fit in a war torn country. I'm still studying chapter 11 and I definitely think it was an epic fail, that ruined lives and devastated families. And it had an opposite effect on the Guerillas bands.
 
This is for @deelady. Booner's spreadsheet in process uses this roster as one of several sources. His spreadsheet will probably be more complete than this, but this is a good place to keep you occupied in the meantime:
http://www.rulen.com/partisan/roster.htm

PS: Booner won't mind me sending you this link. It's not like I'm pre-empting him or anything like that. We're friends who explore CW sites and soldier graves together. Tomorrow we're meeting KLSDAD to take him to some sites associated with J.O. Shelby's raid of October, 1863.
 
This is for @deelady.
PS: Booner won't mind me sending you this link. It's not like I'm pre-empting him or anything like that. We're friends who explore CW sites and soldier graves together. Tomorrow we're meeting KLSDAD to take him to some sites associated with J.O. Shelby's raid of October, 1863.

And Pat's right, I don't mind at all.
 
I wanted to comment on your question about what could have been done differently, but honestly my way of thinking doesn't fit in a war torn country. I'm still studying chapter 11 and I definitely think it was an epic fail, that ruined lives and devastated families. And it had an opposite effect on the Guerillas bands.
We really don't know if Order#11 was a failure because it was in effect only for a year. A better question is do free fire zones reduce guerrilla activity? We can only answer that question by studying many examples of free fire zones.
Next question what should the Union have done to safeguard civilians in Kansas from guerrilla attacks?
Leftyhunter
 
This is for @deelady. Booner's spreadsheet in process uses this roster as one of several sources. His spreadsheet will probably be more complete than this, but this is a good place to keep you occupied in the meantime:
http://www.rulen.com/partisan/roster.htm

PS: Booner won't mind me sending you this link. It's not like I'm pre-empting him or anything like that. We're friends who explore CW sites and soldier graves together. Tomorrow we're meeting KLSDAD to take him to some sites associated with J.O. Shelby's raid of October, 1863.
Thank you. Yes this will keep me very busy lol. I'm excited! I've been doing research locally for a few years and now some of the names I'm getting researching the Civil War in area are all tying together, it's very interesting.
 
Well stopping Jayh
We really don't know if Order#11 was a failure because it was in effect only for a year. A better question is do free fire zones reduce guerrilla activity? We can only answer that question by studying many examples of free fire zones.
Next question what should the Union have done to safeguard civilians in Kansas from guerrilla attacks?
Leftyhunter
Well stopping Jayhawkers and Red Legs from raiding into Missouri would have been a start.
 
Well stopping Jayh

Well stopping Jayhawkers and Red Legs from raiding into Missouri would have been a start.
If the Kansas boys never stated then arguably the COIN war in Mo would not of been as intense. By 1863 after the Lawrence Massacre the situation is to far gone. One can't expect men from Kansas to look kindly on those who massacred little boys.
Leftyhunter
 
Back
Top