Monument Avenue Statues In Richmond, VA

WJC

Major General
Judge Adv. Genl.
Thread Medic
Answered the Call for Reinforcements
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Yes, it does matter.

Sometimes, when you have no other option, no voice, no ability to effect change, when no one listens nor cares about your point of view, sometimes that frustration can erupt into other means rather than any kind of "peacefully Assemble."
Yet most advances in individual liberty have occurred within 'the system' through non-violent activism.
 

PapaReb

First Sergeant
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Location
Arkansas CSA occupied
Sadly, "a real asset" or a huge, ongoing problem. Most of these statues will probably be relegated to a warehouse, not unlike the one in the closing scene of Spielberg's Raiders of the Lost Ark.
At the moment I would deem that the lessor of two evils. For the time being I would much rather see them warehoused in lieu of being destroyed. I hold out hope that in the future they will once again see the light of day in places where they can be viewed and appreciated in the way they were intended to be.
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
Does it matter? Neither one is an excuse for vandalism. “Peacefully Assemble”. They’ve missed the mark.

Yes, it does matter.

Sometimes, when you have no other option, no voice, no ability to effect change, when no one listens nor cares about your point of view, sometimes that frustration can erupt into other means rather than any kind of "peacefully Assemble."
Yet most advances in individual liberty have occurred within 'the system' through non-violent activism.

True.

We have seen, after protests, marches, and hunger strikes, women afforded the right to vote

We have seen, after protest marches, freedom rides attacked by mobs, protesters attacked with fire hoses and dogs, the murder of civil rights volunteers murdered, after the long, hot summer of race riots against police brutality, segregation and voter restrictions legislated against.

We have seen the "separate but equal" ruling of the US Supreme Court overruled in the face of growing unrest.

We have seen our nation, after long and difficult struggles, confront the wrongs of our country, slowly, painfully, and most usually, after some sort of action has been taken. There always seems to be an action, followed by some sort of reaction.

It usually takes someone doing something to get the attention of the nation in order for something to get started on something, that for a long time, has needed attention.

Not everything that should have been taken care of is done in quiet or peaceful manner, as it should be. It sometimes is only taken care of when attention is drawn to it by unpeaceful actions, when something must be done in order to restore the peace.

In my own view, when it comes to Confederate monuments in public spaces, far too often, those in positions of political power, have long ignored, safely, those minorities who didn't elect them, who didn't need to listen, because they had been long kept out of having any power of their own.

In my view, that's changing. What was fine to ignore in the past is no longer 'safe,' not because of the possible destruction of such monuments, but because the political and social climate is changing and the past no longer carries the authority it once did. The sanitized and accepted history of the Confederacy is being called out and found to be too one-sided in it's description of the past. Actual history is catching up with the myth and for a while, the monuments that celebrate the Confederacy was solely about states rights, etc., are going to take a hard knock, and deservedly so, again in my own opinion.

And here we are.

Unionblue
 

Andersonh1

Brigadier General
Moderator
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Location
South Carolina
Unionblue, you continue to focus on the Confederate memorials when many of us have long since realized it goes far beyond them to ALL American history. That's not theory, it's happening now. No historical monument is safe. It's not just "state's rights" that's being redefined, it's all of American history. I'm not sure if you can't or won't see that, but plenty of examples have been presented for all who care to see it.
 
Last edited:

Viper21

Brigadier General
Moderator
Silver Patron
Joined
Jul 4, 2016
Location
Rockbridge County, Virginia
Unionblue, you continue to focus on the Confederate memorials when many of us have long since realized it goes far beyond them to ALL American history. That's not theory, it's happening now. No historical monument is safe. It's not just "state's rights" that's being redefined, it's all of American history. I'm not sure if you can't or won't see that, but plenty of examples have been presented for all who care to see it.
A few things in play, in my opinion. I'm not saying this applies to UB, I'm saying in general.

One: Silence is consent. Two: This is one of the unintended consequences I (& others) referred to years ago on this subject.

Three: Some folks are cool with tearing everything down, & ripping everything apart. Their opinion of our shared country, & it's complicated history differs from ours dramatically. Others were only interested in tearing down Confederate stuff but, ooops... too late, the removal train has already left the station, & is gaining momentum. Like all trains, it can't, or won't stop on a dime.

I've not been in favor of removing ANY monument. Even the ones I don't care for. However, after the victory laps, & spiking of the football in my face, I can't say I'll be shedding any tears when monuments some of these folks care for get removed.

I'm afraid we're going to grow old in a very different country, than what we grew up in. That should sadden more people than it does. There's still some unintended consequences that these folks haven't thought all the way through. I'll certainly be indifferent to their cries for unity, & have zero sympathy for their causes when that happens.
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
Unionblue, you continue to focus on the Confederate memorials when many of us have long since realized it goes far beyond them to ALL American history. That's not theory, it's happening now. No historical monument is safe. It's not just "state's rights" that's being redefined, it's all of American history. I'm not sure if you can't or won't see that, but plenty of examples have been presented for all who care to see it.

I focus on what brought us here, the inability to learn from and not to disguise, history.

I reject the idea that ALL of American history is under threat. Yes, there is a reexamination of monuments in public spaces, but is that a bad thing? And I reject the ongoing cry that ALL of history is being destroyed when monuments in question are removed and destroyed. Edited.

I agree with @Viper21 that the country he and I grew up in is becoming a different country. But I look at my child and my grandchildren and only have hope, as they are smarter and more open to ideas and change, change that has long been needed, even denied in some cases, for my country for too long.

Glass half full.

Unionblue
 
Last edited by a moderator:

RobertP

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Nov 11, 2009
Location
Dallas
A few things in play, in my opinion. I'm not saying this applies to UB, I'm saying in general.

One: Silence is consent. Two: This is one of the unintended consequences I (& others) referred to years ago on this subject.

Three: Some folks are cool with tearing everything down, & ripping everything apart. Their opinion of our shared country, & it's complicated history differs from ours dramatically. Others were only interested in tearing down Confederate stuff but, ooops... too late, the removal train has already left the station, & is gaining momentum. Like all trains, it can't, or won't stop on a dime.

I've not been in favor of removing ANY monument. Even the ones I don't care for. However, after the victory laps, & spiking of the football in my face, I can't say I'll be shedding any tears when monuments some of these folks care for get removed.

I'm afraid we're going to grow old in a very different country, than what we grew up in. That should sadden more people than it does. There's still some unintended consequences that these folks haven't thought all the way through. I'll certainly be indifferent to their cries for unity, & have zero sympathy for their causes when that happens.
I don’t know how long it will take but one of these days people are going to realize that the choices we make are the most important factor in how our lives play out. These are not the 1950’s. Monuments are not the problem but they have become an excuse for bad behavior and outcomes. One member said he has great hope for the future because of what he sees in his child and grandchild. Me too. My son stayed in school (public) and worked hard at it. He waited until after he married to have a child and gave her a stable two parent family. He is a law abiding and thoroughly honest man with a good career. We are very proud of him. He made and continues to make good choices, and he’s doing just fine. My only concern is that with the enabling climate of victimization we now have there just won’t be enough like him in the future.
 
Last edited:

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
I saw a story today where over 60 monuments in Great Britain have been vandalized or torn down. The trend is obviously not just a reevaluation of Confederate memorials, and it's not just American.

So, the sky really is falling?
The evidence is clear.

Depends on what you consider evidence and what you consider hysteria.
*looks at the last 5 years*

I'm more than confident, it's the former.
Compared to the last 234?

A drop in the historical bucket.
 

Andersonh1

Brigadier General
Moderator
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Location
South Carolina
I just saw an article today which stated that 160 Confederate statues were removed in 2020. This was according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Given the rationale for why these are being removed, can we assume that the communities these once stood in are now more just and equal? Or rather, as I would argue, that the removal of a statue does absolutely nothing to cure the condition of someone's heart, and things continue to be exactly the same, just with one less historic statue on the landscape.
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
Given the rationale for why these are being removed, can we assume that the communities these once stood in are now more just and equal? Or rather, as I would argue, that the removal of a statue does absolutely nothing to cure the condition of someone's heart, and things continue to be exactly the same, just with one less historic statue on the landscape.
Can we assume that change has to start SOMEWHERE?

That there is a beginning, a middle, and someday, an end to that change?

Hoping for failure is not an indication of impatience for change, but a desperate hope that there is no change.
 

dlofting

First Sergeant
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
Given the rationale for why these are being removed, can we assume that the communities these once stood in are now more just and equal? Or rather, as I would argue, that the removal of a statue does absolutely nothing to cure the condition of someone's heart, and things continue to be exactly the same, just with one less historic statue on the landscape.
You're right in saying that removing monuments doesn't immediately change what is in someone's heart....but maybe it is a first step and indicates to all that the community in question is ready to change or at least seriously consider change.
 
Top