Michigan city seeks expert to discuss future of Custer site

Kurt G

Sergeant Major
Joined
May 23, 2018
I'd hate to see Custer's statue go for a number of reasons. I have some fond memories of it from the early 60's when I used to meet some of my female friends who snuck away for a few hours in the evening from an all girls boarding school, St. Mary's Academy, to party around Custer and his horse.
I agree . Leave him there . I'm from Michigan too . The War of 1812 and Pontiac's Uprising constitute the most military action here . Never been to Monroe but I'd like to visit the town and the Raisin River battlefield . I hope the killing of the prisoners is covered . At Fort Michilimackinac you have to look very hard to find out anything about its capture . For some reason they seem to want to cover that up . To me it was a well planned victory for the Chippewas .
 

Irishtom29

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Location
Kent, Washington
At Fort Michilimackinac you have to look very hard to find out anything about its capture . For some reason they seem to want to cover that up . To me it was a well planned victory for the Chippewas .

Maybe the cover up has to do with the English being on the menu at the victory party? The respectable bourgeois who control public history aren't keen on such things. That's why there are no historical markers at the sites of two of the most famous incidents in Chicago history--the St. Valentines Day Massacre and the killing of John Dillinger. Not to mention the corner of 63rd and Western where Frank McErlane bushwhacked rival bootlegger Spike O'Donnell in the first use of a Tommy Gun in gang warfare.
 
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Belfoured

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Having been born and raised in the Pays den Haut I think the War of 1812 and its actions there, including the River Raisin, are of far more importance than Custer. I'll put forward the notion that the most important naval battle in American history was the battle of Lake Erie.
While I wouldn't place it above Midway, just for one example, I'd certainly agree that it's "up there". I also wouldn't minimize the (mostly psychological) impacts of the ship-on-ship wins by the Constitution against the then-greatest navy on the planet, and I would put forward the Battle of Lake Champlain, which stopped the British designs on New York.
 

Kurt G

Sergeant Major
Joined
May 23, 2018
Maybe the cover up has to do with the English being on the menu at the victory party?
Yes , but ritual cannibalism was not practiced by all tribes or even all bands within a tribe . The nearby Ottawa did not approve but some claim it was because the Chippewa didn't let them know about their plans . There used to be an ice cream place across the street from the fort called The Royal American . I wondered how many tourists knew what had happened to the Royal Americans several yards from where they were enjoying their ice cream. I think it was back in the 1970s that they had audio recordings in some of the buildings at the fort trying to replicate the attack complete with screams and war calls . Glad that didn't last.
 

Belfoured

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
I am admittedly a very big Custer supporter, so I have my biases. I would, however, respond to the overrated charge with Sheridan's words and actions regarding Custer. No doubt he considered Custer his best Cavalry officer, and it was his actions in the Shenandoah through April, 65 that brought Lee to Appomattox. Sheridan expressed that well when he bought the surrender table for Libbie. I stand on that, but I am certainly well aware of opinions to the contrary. Expected even. No issue, it goes with the subject. He remains as popular and controversial as he did in life. It os no wonder he was the most photographed General of the war. That alone is going to rub a lot of folk wrong.
Sheridan is another "complicated" story in his own right. I recommend the excellent Wittenberg book Little Phil. I expect (and at the presumption of speaking for him I speculate that the author would expect) some disagreement about the views expressed, but they are well-researched, well thought-out, and well-argued. IMHO it's a model of how to take on long-held historical assumptions.
 

Kurt G

Sergeant Major
Joined
May 23, 2018
Sheridan is another "complicated" story in his own right. I recommend the excellent Wittenberg book Little Phil. I expect (and at the presumption of speaking for him I speculate that the author would expect) some disagreement about the views expressed, but they are well-researched, well thought-out, and well-argued. IMHO it's a model of how to take on long-held historical assumptions.
I know Eric isn't a big Custer fan , but it would be interesting to see him do a book on him . It would definitely be well researched .
 

Leigh Cole

Private
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Location
Monroe, MI
I know Eric isn't a big Custer fan , but it would be interesting to see him do a book on him . It would definitely be well researched .
I just go by what Custer's record was. First battle flag captured in the war. Most Reb flags captured by the end. He didn't go from Cadet in 61 to Major General in 1864 by chance. The table. I read the opinions of Kearny, McClellan, Pleasanton, Sheridan, etc. all concerning this officer.
That is pretty much what I go by.
 

Belfoured

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
I just go by what Custer's record was. First battle flag captured in the war. Most Reb flags captured by the end. He didn't go from Cadet in 61 to Major General in 1864 by chance. The table. I read the opinions of Kearny, McClellan, Pleasanton, Sheridan, etc. all concerning this officer.
That is pretty much what I go by.
i will say that if I'm interviewing Autie for a position and that's the list of references he gave me, I might be moving on. 😎
 

Kurt G

Sergeant Major
Joined
May 23, 2018
This is where I again mention one of my favorite tidbits of American history; the battle of Sugar Point, the last fight the United States Army (the 3rd Infantry) had with American Indians. With Chippewas at Leech Lake Minnesota in 1898. The Chippewas won the fight.
As the Sioux found out , don't mess with the Chippewa.
 

Irishtom29

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Location
Kent, Washington
As the Sioux found out , don't mess with the Chippewa.

Toughest guy I knew, and as a field construction boilermaker from Local 1, Chicago, I knew some tough guys, was a buddy of mine who was a Chippewa from Red Lake; he was a union piledriver in Chicago who often worked on permit out of our hall--I saw him label a couple of guys and he hit like a piledriver.

He used to go up to the reservation and gill net walleyes and come back to Chitown with the trunk of his Olds 98 full of iced down fish, then throw a party--Old Style and fried walleye. Good times.
 
Custer was a Soldier who did his Duty in the Civil War and on the Western Plains after the war. He died fulfilling his duty. So what is the problem?

It appears that some locals are upset because Custer's statue that has been in Monroe for over 100 years, represents the mean white man who came along, stole the Native American's land and destroyed a peaceful people who were the first environmentalists living in harmony with nature and other tribes.
 

Scott1967

First Sergeant
Joined
Jul 11, 2016
Location
England
It appears that some locals are upset because Custer's statue that has been in Monroe for over 100 years, represents the mean white man who came along, stole the Native American's land and destroyed a peaceful people who were the first environmentalists living in harmony with nature and other tribes.
Isn't their a saying if you live by the sword you die by the sword , The Indian right of conquest seems very hypocritical in my point of view but much of this can be applied to modern day it seems ok for people to butcher each other but not ok if someone of a different race does it I have never understood this way of thinking.

We live in a world full of Hypocrites we no real knowledge of history that tend form one sided opinions to suit their own needs and the liberal media.

Sadly Custer will suffer like many others because of ignorant people sure he was flawed but then again who isn't?.
 

Andersonh1

Brigadier General
Moderator
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Location
South Carolina
This discussion of who Custer was and what he did reminds me of the same types of discussions we've had about Confederates and their memorials over the years. In the end, history and context won't make any difference. All that matters is that some group was victimized, someone today is angry and offended about that, so the memorial to the victimizer has to go, no matter what else he did in his life.
 

Jomini

Private
Joined
Mar 4, 2021
It appears that some locals are upset because Custer's statue that has been in Monroe for over 100 years, represents the mean white man who came along, stole the Native American's land and destroyed a peaceful people who were the first environmentalists living in harmony with nature and other tribes.
Believe that nonsense and you will believe anything.
 

Leigh Cole

Private
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Location
Monroe, MI
Custer was a Soldier who did his Duty in the Civil War and on the Western Plains after the war. He died fulfilling his duty. So what is the problem?
That’s pretty much my feelings, too. And he was very good at it. Perfect? Nope. But I never met a high ranking officer, and Lt. Col. Mattis was my CO in Storm (1/7 Marines) who wasn’t very forward in their personality’s.
 

Jomini

Private
Joined
Mar 4, 2021
That’s pretty much my feelings, too. And he was very good at it. Perfect? Nope. But I never met a high ranking officer, and Lt. Col. Mattis was my CO in Storm (1/7 Marines) who wasn’t very forward in their personality’s.
Good to know I am not alone on this issue. Marines: At this time: The Backbone of the Republic.
 

Scott1967

First Sergeant
Joined
Jul 11, 2016
Location
England
A bit of idle curiosity from someone with little knowledge of the Indians. If the Indian tribes were living in peaceful harmony why were the Sioux afraid to mess with the Chippewas as referred to above?

John
Good Question John .

Many will tell you it was because the white man encroached on their lands forcing many tribes further west into other tribe territory and although their is some truth to it the fact remains that tribal warfare had been happing for centuries before the white man even appeared.

I'm sure https://civilwartalk.com/members/belfoured.27755/ will shed more light on the matter but from what I'm aware Tribes were broken down in linguistic groups that normally allied themselves with each other so if you take say the Sioux as a whole it can be broken down into 7 distinct tribes that all spoke a similar sort of language.

The altercation between the Sioux and the Chippewas I'm sure people were referring to is the Battle of the Brule that was recorded by a white man who had been adopted into one of the many Chippewas bands.

If an Indian tribe perceived another tribe was weaker they would certainly try to attack and take their lands and people this was par for the course in many cases.
 
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