Measurements of the Stockade Redan

Don't you wish, though, that they would have just left it like this instead of having the CCC boys or the Park Service, or whoever make it a "pristine replica"!
Absolutely !

Since the 1930's, some archaeologists have inadvertently altered hundreds of historic sites with their " reconstructions " .
And while I honestly don't think the archaeologists intended any harm. The fact remains . . . they are always interested in an entirely different aspect of these sites.

While we wish to see original battle emplacements, they wish to dig up everything . . . and look for bones and such.


There's nothing wrong with that !
I like ancient history as well.

Down here, most 1930's damage was done "reconstructing" Native American half pyramid platforms.
AKA "Indian Mounds".

Same happened to many WBTS sites, including Vicksburg.

But I can't blame the CCC guys, ( Civilian Conservation Corps) . . . they were only there for a paycheck.

But . . . Stockade Redan remains impressive.
Even if a much smaller reconstruction.
 
Thank y’all for the great information in this thread. My ancestor was among the Union forces who assaulted the Stockade Redan on May 22nd and I have long been interested in the terrain and events of the assaults and siege. One of my first posts to CWT a couple of years ago has information that I’ve gathered over the years about my ancestor and the Forlorn Hope's assault on the Stockade Redan. I have since made some corrections and additions to that account, and I'll attach it again here if anyone is interested. It's interesting how the new information (new to me, anyway) in this thread fits my ancestor's account of conditions so much better than the fort and surrounding terrain do today. (I spent a week there as an NPS interpretive ranger for the VNMP's sesquicentennial events.)

I wish that the images shared here and others I've seen showed the position of the guns inside the fort. In the cross sectional views, I assume there would normally be cuts or ports shown to accommodate the guns. However, my ancestor clearly describes lying flat on top of the wall to avoid the blasts of the guns just inches above them. So, were the guns on elevated platforms or carriages? Anyone? If anyone knows of photos or drawings of the gun placements, I would love to see them!
 

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Thank y’all for the great information in this thread. My ancestor was among the Union forces who assaulted the Stockade Redan on May 22nd and I have long been interested in the terrain and events of the assaults and siege. One of my first posts to CWT a couple of years ago has information that I’ve gathered over the years about my ancestor and the Forlorn Hope's assault on the Stockade Redan. I have since made some corrections and additions to that account, and I'll attach it again here if anyone is interested. It's interesting how the new information (new to me, anyway) in this thread fits my ancestor's account of conditions so much better than the fort and surrounding terrain do today. (I spent a week there as an NPS interpretive ranger for the VNMP's sesquicentennial events.)

I wish that the images shared here and others I've seen showed the position of the guns inside the fort. In the cross sectional views, I assume there would normally be cuts or ports shown to accommodate the guns. However, my ancestor clearly describes lying flat on top of the wall to avoid the blasts of the guns just inches above them. So, were the guns on elevated platforms or carriages? Anyone? If anyone knows of photos or drawings of the gun placements, I would love to see them!
If you don’t already have Tim Smith’s new book The Union Assaults at Vicksburg I’d highly recommend you get it. As Smith had ancestors in the 36th Miss. defending the Stockade that part of the assaults receives detailed attention. And most of it is from the Union perspective as there are more preserved accounts from that side. Your ancestor is quoted several times in the account of the Forlorn Hope.

Regarding the guns in Stockade Redan. According to Smith there was only one 12 pounder from the Appeal Arkansas battery inside the fort. There was one 12 pounder from McNally’s Arkansas Battery in the 27th La. Lunette, and near the Stockade itself (I assume along the palisade connecting the lunette and Redan) was a 3” rifle from the 1st Mississippi Arty Battery C replacing a 2.71 in. Whitworth rifle from Wall’s Texas Battery that had exploded earlier. No mention of artillery in Green’s Redan. Those 3 pieces focused on the Forlorn Hope.
 
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Thank y’all for the great information in this thread. My ancestor was among the Union forces who assaulted the Stockade Redan on May 22nd and I have long been interested in the terrain and events of the assaults and siege. One of my first posts to CWT a couple of years ago has information that I’ve gathered over the years about my ancestor and the Forlorn Hope's assault on the Stockade Redan. I have since made some corrections and additions to that account, and I'll attach it again here if anyone is interested. It's interesting how the new information (new to me, anyway) in this thread fits my ancestor's account of conditions so much better than the fort and surrounding terrain do today. (I spent a week there as an NPS interpretive ranger for the VNMP's sesquicentennial events.)

I wish that the images shared here and others I've seen showed the position of the guns inside the fort. In the cross sectional views, I assume there would normally be cuts or ports shown to accommodate the guns. However, my ancestor clearly describes lying flat on top of the wall to avoid the blasts of the guns just inches above them. So, were the guns on elevated platforms or carriages? Anyone? If anyone knows of photos or drawings of the gun placements, I would love to see them!
One more thing on what the Forlorn Hope was facing. According to Tim Smith’s book the Redan complex had been significantly strengthened since they relatively easily repulsed the May 19th assault. Earlier it was held by two regiments, the 36th Miss. and the 27th La. with some of Cockrell’s Missourians appearing during the fight. On May 22 additional Missouri and Louisiana troops were called into line, packing 6 regiments into the 3 bastions and attending rifle pits, tripling the number of defenders.
 
If you don’t already have Tim Smith’s new book The Union Assaults at Vicksburg I’d highly recommend you get it. As Smith had ancestors in the 36th Miss. defending the Stockade that part of the assaults receives detailed attention. And most of it is from the Union perspective as there are more preserved accounts from that side. Your ancestor is quoted several times in the account of the Forlorn Hope.

Regarding the guns in Stockade Redan. According to Smith there was only one 12 pounder from the Appeal Arkansas battery inside the fort with infantry. There was one 12 pounder from McNally’s Arkansas Battery in the 27th La. Lunette, and near the Stockade itself (I assume along the palisade connecting the lunette and Redan) was a 3” rifle from the 1st Mississippi Arty Battery C replacing a 2.71 in. Whitworth rifle from Wall’s Texas Battery that had exploded earlier. No mention of artillery in Green’s Redan. Those 3 pieces focused on the Forlorn Hope.
Keep in mind, also, that those gun crews were just about the only thing adequately suppressed by Federal riflemen and batteries supporting the assault given that their positions were well known by May 22. Sadly, those trapped at the base of the parapet in the ditch sustained several fratricidal casualties as a result of that suppressive fire.
 
Keep in mind, also, that those gun crews were just about the only thing adequately suppressed by Federal riflemen and batteries supporting the assault given that their positions were well known by May 22. Sadly, those trapped at the base of the parapet in the ditch sustained several fratricidal casualties as a result of that suppressive fire.
I’ve never read this before but it would have been miraculous if it didn’t happen at all. Do you have a citation for this? Thanks.
 
What is the source for that diagram? My g-grandfather and his brother were in the Redan as part of the 36th Miss. and I always like to learn more about it? Thanks
One of my ancestors carried a log to the ditch on May 22nd. I’d be interested if your g-gf left any firsthand accounts of the action.
 
Sorry for the thread necro, but I felt my posting will fit this topic very well.

@ 7th Mississippi Infantry - I do partially agree with you about many early archaeological & reconstruction efforts at historical sites (in the US as well as elsewhere) from the 1930s up to even the 1970s and later. Despite good intentions, many mistakes were made due to a variety of reasons (interpretation errors, imposing of individual views onto the site and making deliberate changes to it, so things match-up, lack of proper documentation of the situation encountered and the archaeological/restoration work that has been done, not following proper procedures (and again not documenting everything appropriately), unavailability of many modern technological tools we do employ today,...). So one can not blame the Civilian Conservation Corps guys too much for blunders made at Stockade Redan or in the rest of the Vicksburg battlefield area, as they simply did not know any better back then. Historical archaeology as well as restoration has come a VERY long way since then and one would go about this very differently today.

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Anyway I am currently trying to create an accurate 3D reconstruction of the Confederate fortifications complex surrounding Stockade Redan as well as the two smaller strongpoints Green's Redan and 27th Louisiana Lunette.

Things started out with me delving a bit into the literature and producing a more or less accurate section of the "Stockade Redan" (practically just to see if it could be done within the constraints of a game's engine as a few of us have been using a game's mechanics to construct small Civil War fortifications together):

BCoF_Engineering_Stockade_Redan_Vicksburg_Test_01.jpg
BCoF_Engineer_Event_23_8_2023.jpg

On the left you see a screenshot of the first test of recreating "Stockade Redan" (the improvised scale on the left shows 1m and 2m segments). The screenshot of the right shows an example of the usual small earthworks we have been building so far.

After realizing it could be done, I thought it would be great to recreate the Assault on Stockade Redan and the other two strongpoints, but of course I want the earthworks to be as accurate as I can make them using historical accounts, not just slap something in and be done with it.

So I created the terrain matching the real life location (some details need to be slightly adjusted still as time, erosion, development and the "well-meaning" efforts of the CCC all did their part in reshaping and changing the landscape over the decades).

BCoF_Engineering_Stockade_Redan_Vicksburg_Test_07.jpg

High vantage point on the barebones map, looking west from the approximate position of the Union Lines - one can see the deep ravines in front of the Confederate earthworks and defences (currently just mockups that is why it looks so weird) that greatly hindered the attack of the Union assault.

Been testing an awful lot regarding fortification construction in general and trying to connect this with RL accounts of the battle. One thing that puzzles me is that some Union soldiers claim to have managed to scale the Stockade Redan and lay flat on the parapet while the Confederate cannon and shots went only inches over their heads (also some made the mistake of lifting their heads too high and got killed right away). Which seems a bit weird, as I found no solution in how that might have worked. If the parapet is too high, soldiers inside can not shoot over it, besides it needs to have an angle or else your field of fire will be too obstructed.... (or rather more obstructed than it is going to be anyway, as it was pretty broad).

BCoF_Engineering_Stockade_Redan_Vicksburg_Test_08.jpg

If the angle of the parapet's top side is too steep it no longer protects well (less earth in front of the men due to the angle). But how could the Union soldiers "lying down on the parapet" not be hit? I still have not found a solution to that problem. Maybe they rather meant the front wall of the parapet and not the top side?

Another puzzling thing, that I am trying to find out, is how the cannon might have been positioned, as it is unclear if there was really a gun embrasure in the parapet or if the single cannon at Stockade Redan was put on an elevated platform, shooting over the parapet. It could very well be, that the Union soldiers were only able to scale the parapet at the location of an embrasure?

BCoF_Engineering_Stockade_Redan_Vicksburg_Test_11_1.jpg
BCoF_Engineering_Stockade_Redan_Vicksburg_Test_11_2.jpg

Here is a crude mock-up of an elevated platform approach, on the left how this would look seen from the outside.

BCoF_Engineering_Stockade_Redan_Vicksburg_Test_11_3.jpg
BCoF_Engineering_Stockade_Redan_Vicksburg_Test_11_5.jpg
BCoF_Engineering_Stockade_Redan_Vicksburg_Test_11_4.jpg

Here a embrasure approach is shown, from the side, top and front. Note that the "angle" of the embrasure looks big but this is necessary to allow a meaningful field of fire.

I am also thinking it might have been logical to actually have two embrasures to allow the gun crew to reposition the single gun as seen below in the mock-up test.

BCoF_Engineering_Stockade_Redan_Vicksburg_Test_11_6.jpg
BCoF_Engineering_Stockade_Redan_Vicksburg_Test_11_7.jpg

On the left you see the location of the embrasure, close to the salient angle of Stockade Redan as that point would give one a good field of fire towards the eastern approaches (the muddy line to the left is Graveyard Road and one can also see the ditch running in front of the main parapet). On the right you see me having put in a 2nd embrasure that would enable the gun crew to reposition the cannon if needed, to divert their fire on the northern approaches (have not put in any ramp though - would make sense to have a broad ramp configuration though, allowing access to both points so one could switch targets more easily, while still allowing the crew to load out of sight, maybe even including a bombproof for protection).

That is what I have for now. Hopefully you guys will be able to help me a bit and share your wisdom and knowledge.
 
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