Meade after Gettysburg

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This thread is intended to look at Meade's action after Gettysburg with an eye on the what if Grant was not given all over command and it was left to Meade to pursue and defeat Lee & ANV.

Starting with this post from the thread Meade of Gettysburg
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Just the opposite in fact, the AoP never marched so far, so fast, as they did before Gettysburg, under Meade, but after Gettysburg, it would not be matched, until the final pursuit to Appomattox under Grant. From extant reports and ltrs of Meade, if the awe had not increase after Gettysburg, it certainly had not diminish.
After his testing of battle in command of an Army, Meade record in Northern Va. after Gettysburg, ceertainly leaves the impression of his not wanting to meet Lee and the ANV in close combat again.


PS. I do not say that Meade was personally afraid of battle, merely that the responsibility of being in command of the Major army of the Union, which could win or lose the war in a day,( i.e.,he was much more afraid of the consequences of losing. rather than of winning)was too much for Meade. Under Grant who now bore the brunt the nations(and Lincoln's) expectations, Meade's normal courage and abilities could come to the fore, uninhibited.
 
What is there to say, really, about Meade's activities(such as they were) after Gettysburg? Lincoln left him to fill the interegnum, between Gettysburg and the coming of Grant. Leaving it to Grant's professional opinion as to replacing him or not.
As noted, without the burden of ultimate responsibility, Meade was able to give good service' Kudo's him and Grant for seeing it. Besides, it would not have been politic(and probably counter productive) to have had two Westerners to control the war in the East and besides, who was any better than Meade from within the AoP itself?
 
I want do more reading on the subject myself, but based on the limited number of works on the subject the period between July 15, 1863 and April/May 1864 seems insufficiently studied (presumably due the lack of major battles).

I think one thing that hindered Meade was his reliance on subordinates. He needed aggressive subordinates to support him and with Reynolds dead, Hancock wounded (and perhaps never the same again as a result), Hooker gone west, and Meade himself in command what aggressive generals were left until Grant and Sheridan came east? Meade looked to attack Lee on a number of occasions, but seemed to always get talked out of it by subordinates. Then he let himself get maneuvered almost back to Washington during the Bristoe Campaign.

Compare the assaults not made at Falling Waters on July 13, 1863 and at Mine Run in Dec 1863 with the assaults made at Spotsylvania and Cold Harbor in May/June 1863.

I like Meade, but from what I know he seems to have been cautious to a fault. If Grant doesn't take the field I could see the AotP and ANV sparring for much of 1864 unless perhaps reinforced more than they were under Grant.
 
Meade would have been better off (and the A of P too) if there was not a de facto "joint command" with Grant. You had two chiefs of staffs (Andrew Humphreys for Meade and John Rawlins for Grant) for example and Meade should have been given a command elsewhere. Sheridan who technically was under Meade's command, was disrespectful and insubordinate to Meade because he was Grant's pet.
 
I want do more reading on the subject myself, but based on the limited number of works on the subject the period between July 15, 1863 and April/May 1864 seems insufficiently studied (presumably due the lack of major battles).

I think one thing that hindered Meade was his reliance on subordinates. He needed aggressive subordinates to support him and with Reynolds dead, Hancock wounded (and perhaps never the same again as a result), Hooker gone west, and Meade himself in command what aggressive generals were left until Grant and Sheridan came east? Meade looked to attack Lee on a number of occasions, but seemed to always get talked out of it by subordinates. Then he let himself get maneuvered almost back to Washington during the Bristoe Campaign.

Compare the assaults not made at Falling Waters on July 13, 1863 and at Mine Run in Dec 1863 with the assaults made at Spotsylvania and Cold Harbor in May/June 1863.

I like Meade, but from what I know he seems to have been cautious to a fault. If Grant doesn't take the field I could see the AotP and ANV sparring for much of 1864 unless perhaps reinforced more than they were under Grant.
Meade's bad temper and tendency towards self pity were two major factors against him. However he was a good tactician with a certain courage in a crisis.
 
I would strongly urge everyone to read One Continuous Fight and Retreat from Gettysburg. I am amazed how much I did not know about General Meade. The man took command of the AoP on June 28, 1863. Please, just think about that. Then think about the battle, his new Corps Commanders, his supply base at Westminster. Then read about the retreat and the pursuit. Amazing stuff.
 
Presumably Meade would continue trying to take the offensive, as he did in 1863-64, but he would not be as aggressive or determined as Grant. On the other hand, as Lee said, "General Meade will make no mistake in my front." To that extent, the ongoing standoff in the East might continue, punctuated by occasional marches and battles but without decisive result.

However....

If Grant does not become general-in-chief, presumably he stays in the west, so the key question might be whether Grant would speed up the pace of the war in the west in 1864? Would he simply run the Atlanta campaign as it was, with Sherman remaining a talented subordinate? It's often said that the war was decided in the west; if Grant increased the pressure there, how would the Confederates respond?
 
Meade was a good commander. he may have come on a little strong at gettysburg. but he did put a hurting on Hill at Bristoe Station (?) in Oct iirc. and saw the wisdom of his men at Mine Run. and it's Meade who is buttoning up Grants coat when Grant was loosing it early that spring.
 
There was considerable activity through early Dec. 1863, ending with the Mine Run campaign (ending Dec. 2, 1963. During this time both armies were understrength, with Longstreet being sent to the ANV at Chickamauga, and then Knoxville, and Hooker being sent to join Grant and

I agree that it seems that there was an awfully long time between the end of the Mine Run campaign and Grant being placed in charge of all Union armies in March 1864 - about four months total. There was not any significant combat by the AoP during that period.

In fairness to Meade, he needed to collect the armies together again , and to replace Hooker who had been sent off to join Grant, and then Sherman. Also, this wasn't the campain season - the roads were muddy and impassable to wagons, cavalry, and artillary. Trying to operate during the winter of 1864 would have been a recipie for disaster, with the lack of mobility favoring the defender - As shown by the earlier "mud march".

Supplies needed to be collected, manpower replaced, horse replaced and/or shod, dead or wounded commanders replaced. There were all things which were needed before Grant could conduct the Battle of the Wilderness and the Overland Campaign - which shows Grant's urgency to get his planning done within a very short period of time. He wanted to have simultanious offensives - Grant in Northern Virginia, Butler in central Virginia, Sherman starting in Dalton, GA, and Banks attacking Mobile. It turns out that only the AoP and Sherman's campaign worked.
 
i agree the winter were slow months but that was common for the area. the last time something major happened in the winter was fredericksburg.
the removal of Longstreets Corps and the 11th and 12th corps balanced things until Longstreet returned. Meade continued to command the remaining 60,000 or s0. From that perspective, for a time Lee out numbered Meade. Lee may have been oblivious to this point.
Along with Grant's arrival were: Burnside and the 9th Corps, a few divisions of negro troops, and 10-12000 heavy arty soon to be baptized infantry. the heavy regiments came in 2,000 man regiments of two 1,000 man battalions. 6 new regiments or so. but i digress.
 
The heavy artillery regiments had twelve companies organized in three battalions. They were equipped with rifles and had basic infantry training, since their duties included garrisonning forts where there might not be regular infantry present.
 
Once again, let's have a look at the period between July 14-October 1, 1863.

The Army of the Potomac took approximately 1/3 casualties at Gettysburg. Those men do not magically re-appear. Wounded men need to recuperate, new men have to be recruited and trained, and they need to take the field. These things take time.

In addition, after the battle, 16,000 men were taken from Meade and sent to New York City to put down the draft riots, where they stayed for a while. Further, you had quite a few men whose terms of service expired during the summer of 1863, and they took their discharges and went home.

Thus, by August 1 or so, Meade had only about 45,000 effective men in the field. Meade was chafing. He WANTED to attack, but Halleck, concerned about the lack of manpower, ORDERED Meade to stand down. Let's keep that in mind.

In fact, once across the Potomac River on or about July 17, Meade turned hyper-aggressive, and pitched into about 1/3 of the Army of Northern Virginia at Manassas Gap, also sometimes known as Wapping Heights. Meade nearly cut-off Ewell's entire corps and nearly destroyed it. Ewell, however, escaped across the Shenandoah River to safety, with the Army of the Potomac in pursuit. This is the precise time frame when troops were being taken from him to send to New York City, and Halleck felt it necessary to rein Meade in. Consequently, when the armies returned to the banks of the Rappahannock River--from whence they had begun the campaign--Halleck forced Meade to wait.

Mix in the fact that the three most aggressive corps commanders in the Army of the Potomac were gone (Sickles--without a leg, Hancock--severely wounded after his magnificent performance at Gettysburg, and Reynolds--dead), replaced by the likes of William Hays, John Newton and Blinky French (about whom I often say that the only aggressive move Old Blinky ever made was on a whiskey bottle). Indeed, only Slocum, Sedgwick and Uh Oh Howard had more than a couple of weeks experience commanding corps. Slocum earned the nickname Slow Come for good reason and Howard, well, one only need study his performances at Chancellorsville and on July 1 to get a good sense that this man had reached his level of incompetence for Peter Principle reasons. That leaves Tardy George Sykes (a corps commander since June 29), Hays (July 3), Newton (July 1) and Old Blinky (July 10), with no experience to speak of. Hays was soon replaced by Warren. Newton didn't last long either.

These guys needed to get some experience and to get their feet under them in corps command. They had limited ability in the first place, and to expect too much of them is not reasonable. An army commander is only as good as his subordinates. If you need proof of that, have a good, hard, long look at the Army of Tennessee. The troops sent to New York eventually returned, but then the 11th and 12th Corps were detached and sent to Chattanooga, never to return, leaving Meade with only about 60,000 men. Conventional wisdom was that you had to outnumber the enemy by 2-1, and Meade's army was no larger (and at times, smaller) than Lee's. Not until the spring of 1864 when the 9th Corps was attached to it, new troops mustered due to the draft joined the army, and the arrival of troops stripped from the defenses of Washington, DC and other coastal areas did the Army of the Potomac receive any significant reinforcement to regain its numeric advantage.

French, in fact, did so poorly during the fall of 1863 (and especially at Mine Run, where he was insubordinate and rightfully drew the Old Goggle-Eyed Snapping Turtle's ire) that the Third Corps was merged out of existence early in 1864 just to be rid of Old Blinky. For those who don't know this, I am researching to do a book-length study of the Mine Run Campaign, so I have a pretty good handle on just what a poor job this drunken lout did during the fall of 1863, but he outranked nearly everyone in the army, which made it exceedingly difficult to get rid of him.

Once he was reined in by Halleck, Meade himself realized that his army was not yet ready to take the field in a major campaign during the fall of 1863, which is why he resisted the idea. Let's remember that as the Army of the Potomac got back wounded men who had recuperated from their Gettysburg wounds, so, too, did the Army of Northern Virginia, which remained a very dangerous adversary, even without Longstreet's Corps present. It took a direct order for Meade to undertake the Bristoe Station Campaign and the Mine Run Campaign. At Bristoe, while he roughed up Hill's Third Corps rather badly, had a large-scale engagement come about, Lee was on familiar ground. At Mine Run, a full-scale attack would have been a worse defeat than Fredericksburg, and Meade deserves credit for calling it off once he was alerted to the danger.

Meade's real downfall was the chaos created by Dan Sickles through his anonymous Historicus articles and the subsequent witch hunt of the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War, which was looking for a reason to crucify him. Nobody needed that distraction, and having all of those backseat drivers inevitably meant that it was impossible for Meade to please them. They had such unrealistic expectations that he never had a chance.

Finally, let's also remember that Meade had never wanted army command in the first place. He was ordered to take command, and as soon as the Battle of Gettysburg was over, he tried to give it back but was rebuffed.

The man clearly had his flaws, as does every human being. However, I tend to give him some slack because of the circumstances, and, at the end of the day, he fought a brilliant battle at Gettysburg and won a decisive victory under some of the most difficult circumstances imaginable.

And, just a parting thought: until the final campaign in the spring of 1865, when the Army of Northern Virginia had been stretched to its limits and worn out, just how many battles did Grant win in the East?
 
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Once again, let's have a look at the period between July 14-October 1, 1863.

The Army of the Potomac took approximately 1/3 casualties at Gettysburg. Those men do not magically re-appear. Wounded men need to recuperate, new men have to be recruited and trained, and they need to take the field. These things take time.

In addition, after the battle, 16,000 men were taken from Meade and sent to New York City to put down the draft riots, where they stayed for a while. Further, you had quite a few men whose terms of service expired during the summer of 1863, and they took their discharges and went home.

Thus, by August 1 or so, Meade had only about 45,000 effective men in the field. Meade was chafing. He WANTED to attack, but Halleck, concerned about the lack of manpower, ORDERED Meade to stand down. Let's keep that in mind.

In fact, once across the Potomac River on or about July 17, Meade turned hyper-aggressive, and pitched into about 1/3 of the Army of Northern Virginia at Manassas Gap, also sometimes known as Wapping Heights. Meade nearly cut-off Ewell's entire corps and nearly destroyed it. Ewell, however, escaped across the Shenandoah River to safety, with the Army of the Potomac in pursuit. This is the precise time frame when troops were being taken from him to send to New York City, and Halleck felt it necessary to rein Meade in. Consequently, when the armies returned to the banks of the Rappahannock River--from whence they had begun the campaign--Halleck forced Meade to wait.

Mix in the fact that the three most aggressive corps commanders in the Army of the Potomac were gone (Sickles--without a leg, Hancock--severely wounded after his magnificent performance at Gettysburg, and Reynolds--dead), replaced by the likes of William Hays, John Newton and Blinky French (about whom I often say that the only aggressive move Old Blinky ever made was on a whiskey bottle). Indeed, only Slocum, Sedgwick and Uh Oh Howard had more than a couple of weeks experience commanding corps. Slocum earned the nickname Slow Come for good reason and Howard, well, one only need study his performances at Chancellorsville and on July 1 to get a good sense that this man had reached his level of incompetence for Peter Principle reasons. That leaves Tardy George Sykes (a corps commander since June 29), Hays (July 3), Newton (July 1) and Old Blinky (July 10), with no experience to speak of. Hays was soon replaced by Warren. Newton didn't last long either.

These guys needed to get some experience and to get their feet under them in corps command. They had limited ability in the first place, and to expect too much of them is not reasonable. An army commander is only as good as his subordinates. If you need proof of that, have a good, hard, long look at the Army of Tennessee. The troops sent to New York eventually returned, but then the 11th and 12th Corps were detached and sent to Chattanooga, never to return, leaving Meade with only about 60,000 men. Conventional wisdom was that you had to outnumber the enemy by 2-1, and Meade's army was no larger (and at times, smaller) than Lee's. Not until the spring of 1864 when the 9th Corps was attached to it, new troops mustered due to the draft joined the army, and the arrival of troops stripped from the defenses of Washington, DC and other coastal areas did the Army of the Potomac receive any significant reinforcement to regain its numeric advantage.

French, in fact, did so poorly during the fall of 1863 (and especially at Mine Run, where he was insubordinate and rightfully drew the Old Goggle-Eyed Snapping Turtle's ire) that the Third Corps was merged out of existence early in 1864 just to be rid of Old Blinky. For those who don't know this, I am researching to do a book-length study of the Mine Run Campaign, so I have a pretty good handle on just what a poor job this drunken lout did during the fall of 1863, but he outranked nearly everyone in the army, which made it exceedingly difficult to get rid of him.

Meade himself knew that his army was not yet ready to take the field in a major campaign during the fall of 1863, which is why he resisted the idea. It took a direct order for him to undertake the Bristoe Station Campaign and the Mine Run Campaign. At Bristoe, while he roughed up Hill's Third Corps rather badly, had a large-scale engagement come about, Lee was on familiar ground. At Mine Run, a full-scale attack would have been a worse defeat than Fredericksburg, and Meade deserves credit for calling it off once he was alerted to the danger.

Meade's real downfall was the chaos created by Dan Sickles through his anonymous Historicus articles and the subsequent witch hunt of the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War, which was looking for a reason to crucify him. Nobody needed that distraction, and having all of those backseat drivers inevitably meant that it was impossible for Meade to please them. They had such unrealistic expectations that he never had a chance.

Finally, let's also remember that Meade had never wanted army command in the first place. He was ordered to take command, and as soon as the Battle of Gettysburg was over, he tried to give it back but was rebuffed.

The man clearly had his flaws, as does every human being. However, I tend to give him some slack because of the circumstances, and, at the end of the day, he fought a brilliant battle at Gettysburg and won a decisive victory under some of the most difficult circumstances imaginable.

And, just a parting thought: until the final campaign in the spring of 1865, when the Army of Northern Virginia had been stretched to its limits and worn out, just how many battles did Grant win in the East?


Nice summary, Eric. I would just point out Grant wasn't the commander of the AoP in the East, Meade was. So the question would be how many battles Meade won. :)
 
Nice summary, Eric. I would just point out Grant wasn't the commander of the AoP in the East, Meade was. So the question would be how many battles Meade won. :smile:

Technically, you're correct, Cash, but after the first day of the Battle of the Wilderness, Grant was effectively in command of the Army of the Potomac with Meade serving, more or less, as chief of staff. It's a fair question.
 
Technically, you're correct, Cash, but after the first day of the Battle of the Wilderness, Grant was effectively in command of the Army of the Potomac with Meade serving, more or less, as chief of staff. It's a fair question.

I don't think Grant got into the tactics to be used in attacks with the possible exception of Spotsylvania after Upton's qualified success and Grant deciding to do the same thing with the II Corps the next day. Brooks Simpson points out that Meade was given his head for Cold Harbor and that failure can be traced to Meade and his corps commanders not doing proper reconnaissance and not coordinating their movements.
 

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