Markings on Swords.

drm2m

Sergeant
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Location
Quebec
I don’t have a large collection of swords--- OR---- a large library on swords.

Blades_zpsvr0ij8kl.jpg


John%20H.%20Thillmann_zpsqieohwlc.jpg


The%20American%20Sword--Harold%20L.%20Peterson_zpst9tefgf9.jpg


These pieces are all marked differently--- some with more markings than others.

-Model 1860 Ames manufactured cavalry saber, 1863 dated—A.D.K. inspected for Andrew D. King ---Armory Sub-Inspector.

USandADK-1863dateonthisM1860Amescavalrysaber.jpg


ADKstamponpommelbrim.jpg


AmesmarkingontheM1860.jpg


-Model 1840 Ames manufactured cavalry saber, marked " N.P. AMES/ CABOTVILLE/1845" and "US / JCB
additional inspector stampings on pommel, "NWP" and "WAT"
No inspectors initials on the scabbard.
This is my best marked piece.

WAT%20pommel%20markings%20on%201845%20dated%20Ames%20M1840%20saber_zpsx1yfipmb.jpg



1845datemarking.jpg


An unknown marking on the scabbard.

Pmarkingonscabbard.jpg



Model 1850 Foot Officer’s sword manufactured by HORSTMANN & SONS PHILADELPHIA.
There are no other markings.

Copy3ofNew1850FootSwordPhotos004.jpg


-Model 1840 Musicians swords.

Manufactured by Ames Mfg Co
Chicoppee
Mass
(left ricasso)

Model1840MusiciansswordAmes1864DSC04116.jpg


U.S.
C.S.L.
1864
(right ricasso)

Model%201840%20Ames%20manufactured%20Musicians%20sword-dated%201864_zpsolywcswu.jpg


Inspector’s initial J.F. on the drag.
J.H. inspector’s initial on the Knuckle Bow.
"J.H." for John Hannis, Armoury Sub-Inspector.
C.S.L. Is for Charles S. Lowell (I think.)

Model1840MusiciansswordAmesdated-1.jpg


-The second Model 1840 Musician’s sword.
Stamped in a circle.
C. ROBY CHELMSFORD MS
M /U.S. / 1863

Model1840MusiciansswordRobydated186.jpg


DSC04085_zpslwmizidk.jpg


Inspector’s initials A.G.M. on the scabbard drag as well as A.G.M on the brass Knuckle Bow.

Model1840MusiciansswordRobydated-2.jpg



-Model 1822 Chatellerault saber dated 1844.
This was the first piece in my collection dating back to approx. 1960.
My father bought it for me at a local pawn shop.
Two different markings on the scabbard.

DSC08358.jpg


Possible%20CC%20over%20F%20Klingenthal%20scabbard%20drag%20marking%20marking_zpsqw2ohllk.jpg


Possible%20Klingenthal%20%20stamp%20on%20the%20scabbard%20throat_zpsu1gxdpq2.jpg
 
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Very nice examples! I've always preferred regulation pieces like these for my collection too. And of course, Peterson is the "bible" for collecting them.
 
A very nice looking group of well marked swords. Does your Horstmann M1850 foot officer's sword have any markings on the obverse ricasso, e.g. a king's head? Horstmann used Solingen blades on many, if not most, of his M1850s, primarily from the firm Gebruder Weyersberg. The Weyersberg blades had a small king's head stamped on the obverse or reverse ricasso.

Horstmann Mark Type 5 1 comp.jpg
 
Richard,

This stuff dates back to February 2006 when I was trying to decide if I was going to proceed with the purchase of this sword.
John Thillmann was very helpful back then.

Comments from John Thillmann before I bought this sword back in February 2006.

Note 1) the blade is stamped, it has two stamps--Philadelphia is a separate stamp and not etched, 2) no Gebruder Weyersberg blade maker stamp 3) the grip is leather 4) the etching style.

1) I have seen Horseman swords with the separate Philadelphia stamp (usually found on the opposite side from the Horseman stamp) on earlier swords 2) usually the lack of a Gebruder Weyersberg stamp (kings head) doesn't mean much but would be expected to be seen on 1860s examples 3) the leather grip is a feature found on lesser quality Horseman swords and may indicate it was carried by a militia officer who was not required to follow the US regulation for sharkskin, but it is seen on other makers of the CW period such as Sauerbier 4) I didn't see a US on the blade etching but Horseman often didn't have a US within the blade etching.

All in all I'd be comfortable placing the sword within the prewar through the Civil War period.

When you get the sword and if you like, I may be able to fit it into the new book. I'd need 35mm color photos 5x7 in size. Mainly a hilt shot both sides showing the ricasso markings, scabbard throat and drag and a blade shot.

I did not have a 35mm camera at that time so it never happened.

Resized%20Copy%20of%20Copy%20of%20mod%201850%20sword%20014_zpstov9ufjb.jpg


DSC04315_zpsrfgpi8ot.jpg


DSC04312_zps2yjl8zsh.jpg
 
additional inspector stampings on pommel, "NWP" and "WAT"

Very Nice collection.
Ive always loved the Cabotville 1840s I have several in my collection. The inspectors for your 1840 are below.
WAT: William Anderson Thornton Capt., USA Nippes M1840 Musket, Ames, Aston R. Johnson & Waters Pistols and Massachusetts Arms Adams, Remington Beals, Savage, Colt, Paterson, Walker and Dragoon Revolvers, Joslyn Carbines, Colt Revolving Rifles 1840-1861

NWP: Nahum W. Patch Colt Walker and 1 St Model Dragoon Revolver, Ames & R. Johnson Pistols, Starr Rifles and North-Hall Carbines, Waters .69 Flintlock Muskets 1831-1849.

JCB: Joseph C. Bragg R. Johnson, Waters, Ames Swords, Colt Dragoon Revolvers, Starr Revolvers 1846-1849
 
****, I love swords ! I used to give a lot of school presentations and I would pass around my CW collection to keep the kids awake for 90 minutes . I had 2 as I called it "public swords " Swords that were not in great shape and so if they got nicked or scratches no big deal. The expressions the kids faces as they handled the swords was amazing and they would say things like " I feel so powerful " " This is so kool " Somebody once called the sword " The romantic weapon " Anyways NICE SWORDS GUYS .
 
ucvrelics.com

It was John Thillmann that pointed me to the Ames Cabotville M1840 at Carolina Collectors Civil War Relics.
The WAT (William Anderson Thornton) inspection stamp on this sword later caused me to purchase a M1851 Colt Navy with a WAT cartouche.

The top Model 1851 has the WAT cartouche.

0these%20%20martial%2051%20Colt%20Navy%20revolvers%20were%20manufactured%20in%201857_zpsh5bvlmmg.jpg


The red arrow points to the WAT cartouche.

nspectors%20cartouches%20on%20the%20grips%20of%20both%2051%20Colt%20Navy%20revolvers_zpsxsquqdli.jpg

 
I don’t have a large collection of swords--- OR---- a large library on swords.

Blades_zpsvr0ij8kl.jpg


John%20H.%20Thillmann_zpsqieohwlc.jpg


The%20American%20Sword--Harold%20L.%20Peterson_zpst9tefgf9.jpg


These pieces are all marked differently--- some with more markings than others.

-Model 1860 Ames manufactured cavalry saber, 1863 dated—A.D.K. inspected for Andrew D. King ---Armory Sub-Inspector.

USandADK-1863dateonthisM1860Amescavalrysaber.jpg


ADKstamponpommelbrim.jpg


AmesmarkingontheM1860.jpg


-Model 1840 Ames manufactured cavalry saber, marked " N.P. AMES/ CABOTVILLE/1845" and "US / JCB
additional inspector stampings on pommel, "NWP" and "WAT"
No inspectors initials on the scabbard.
This is my best marked piece.

WAT%20pommel%20markings%20on%201845%20dated%20Ames%20M1840%20saber_zpsx1yfipmb.jpg



1845datemarking.jpg


An unknown marking on the scabbard.

Pmarkingonscabbard.jpg



Model 1850 Foot Officer’s sword manufactured by HORSTMANN & SONS PHILADELPHIA.
There are no other markings.

Copy3ofNew1850FootSwordPhotos004.jpg


-Model 1840 Musicians swords.

Manufactured by Ames Mfg Co
Chicoppee
Mass
(left ricasso)

Model1840MusiciansswordAmes1864DSC04116.jpg


U.S.
C.S.L.
1864
(right ricasso)

Model%201840%20Ames%20manufactured%20Musicians%20sword-dated%201864_zpsolywcswu.jpg


Inspector’s initial J.F. on the drag.
J.H. inspector’s initial on the Knuckle Bow.
"J.H." for John Hannis, Armoury Sub-Inspector.
C.S.L. Is for Charles S. Lowell (I think.)

Model1840MusiciansswordAmesdated-1.jpg


-The second Model 1840 Musician’s sword.
Stamped in a circle.
C. ROBY CHELMSFORD MS
M /U.S. / 1863

Model1840MusiciansswordRobydated186.jpg


DSC04085_zpslwmizidk.jpg


Inspector’s initials A.G.M. on the scabbard drag as well as A.G.M on the brass Knuckle Bow.

Model1840MusiciansswordRobydated-2.jpg



-Model 1822 Chatellerault saber dated 1844.
This was the first piece in my collection dating back to approx. 1960.
My father bought it for me at a local pawn shop.
Two different markings on the scabbard.

DSC08358.jpg


Possible%20CC%20over%20F%20Klingenthal%20scabbard%20drag%20marking%20marking_zpsqw2ohllk.jpg


Possible%20Klingenthal%20%20stamp%20on%20the%20scabbard%20throat_zpsu1gxdpq2.jpg
Neat!
 
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Although I believe you are probably correct in identifying your Horstmann sword as a low-end M1850 foot officer’s sword, there is another possibility. In 1859, the Marine Corps adopted a new sergeants’ sword to replace the old eagle head pommel sword. It was identical to the M1850 foot officers’ sword except the grips were covered with leather instead of shark skin and the brass hilt and fittings were plain brass, not gilt. Although the early blades were plain polished steel with no etching, at some point etched designs were added to the blade, initially just generic stands of arms and foliate design, and later with a design similar to that used on the M1850 foot officers’ sword but with the initials “U.S.M.C.” in place of the “U.S.” on the reverse side of the blade. The traditional date collectors cite for the adoption of the “U.S.M.C.” etch design is 1875, but I have been unable to find any primary source to support that date and there is some evidence it was adopted earlier. The most obvious difference between the officer and USMC sergeants’ swords is the scabbard. Officer’s wore their swords with slings, and thus the scabbards were fitted with three gilt mountings with two carrying rings; most sergeants wore their swords with a frog, and thus their scabbards featured two plain brass mounts, a throat with a frog stud and drag. To confuse things, however, at some point Staff NCOs, e.g. sergeants major and quartermaster sergeants, were authorized to wear their swords with slings in the same manner as officers. It is unknown when exactly this was authorized, but it is included in the uniform regulation of 1875, so it was on or before that date.

Horstmann had the original contract for M1859 sergeants’ swords, but for most of the CW the contracts went to Bent and Bush. Bent and Bush was not a sword maker, however, and it is believed it subcontracted with Horstmann for the swords needed to fulfill its contracts with the Marine Corps. There are no known examples of CW-era Marine sergeants’ swords with a B&B name, only Horstmann.

Since your sword has a three-mount scabbard for wear with slings, it is hard to say for sure whether it is a Marine SNCO or an officer’s sword. Does the hilt show any sign of originally being gilt? Check the protected areas of the design. If it was ever gilt, it was definitely not a Marine sword. Is the scabbard, by any chance, leather covered steel? This would indicate it was Marine. Originally M1859 Marine sergeants’ swords had leather-bodied scabbards like the officers’ swords, but these swords continued in use up through WWI, and the leather scabbards were more subject to wear and breakage than the scabbards, so the Marines bought a lot of replacement scabbards, and at some point in the late 19th century the all-leather scabbards were replaced with steel-bodied scabbards with leather covering. If you have such a leather-covered steel scabbard, it is almost certainly marine.

Here is an example of the original M1859 Marine sergeant’s sword with an unetched blade:

M1859 USMC NCO Cowens 8.JPG

Here is a later M1859 Marine SNCO sword with the “U.S.M.C.” etched blade:
M1859 SNCO Horstmann 4.JPG


Here is a picture of the early generic etch design on the reverse side of a Marine sergeant’s sword:

Generic Etch Design 1.jpg


The later U.S.M.C. etch design:
USMC Etch Design 1.JPG


If it turns out your sword is a USMC example, I would find it very interesting. I have an example of an early M1859 with unetched blade with the same stamped maker’s name as your sword:

Horstmann philfarmer 16.jpg

Horstmann philfarmer 17.jpg


The other Marine swords with generic etching which I have seen have included the Horstmann name it the etch design. Your sword doesn’t which would imply yours is an early example with an etched blade, or perhaps even an originally unetched blade such as mine which had etching added at a later date.
 
Thanks for your thoughts Richard.

Mustang Cdr--- the only naval piece that I have is a very nice Dahlgren knife bayonet.

Dahlgrenbayonetandscabbard044.jpg


Dahlgrenbayonetandscabbard.jpg


3.jpg


4.jpg


DR for Daniel Reynolds navy inspector.

DahlgrenbayonetDRInspectorsinitials.jpg
 
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