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Looting the South Split from Uncivil Action: Was Lincoln Wrong on Secession?

Discussion in 'Civil War History - Secession and Politics' started by Old_Glory, Jan 29, 2017.

  1. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Captain

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    @Old_Glory asserted that the cause of the Civil War was a conspiracy by nefarious Northern business men in order to profit from the cotton trade. Old Glory has still failed to so far to prove his point. Maybe one day he will.
    It as already been stipulated that during the Civil War Union forces traded with Confederates to sell cotton to Northern cotton brokers. Yes their was indeed corruptuon. However that does not prove a pre war conspiracy.
    Leftyhunter
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017

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  3. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    I am of the opinion that the evidence is long on anecdotal and short on tangible on that cotton trade.
     
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  4. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Captain

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    One would think the fact that post Civil War Jefferson Davis and his brother had to finance the sale of a large plantation of prime cotton land to a former slave would disprove that their were nefarious business men trying to wrest the cotton trade from theie rightfull Southern born heirs. It would be interesting to see what @Old_Glory take on this is? Not to mention why didn't these same nefarious business men buy out Forrests plantation for pennies on the dollar?Perhaps our good friend @Drew can explain thus most puzzling mystery.
    Leftyhunter
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
  5. cash

    cash Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    What I'm seeing is that while there were some substantial disenfranchisements in the Upper South, the Deep South had much fewer, hence the number of disenfranchisements is fewer than normally believed.
     
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  6. unionblue

    unionblue Brev. Brig. Gen'l Member of the Year

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    To All,

    Ya know, I've enjoyed the twists and turns on other topics that have come up in this thread, but I STILL don't know what Old_Glory was trying to prove by way of his OP.

    Does anyone else know, since we have heard almost nothing since his OP?

    Unionblue
     
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  7. StephenColbert27

    StephenColbert27 Sergeant

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    I can only assume that the OP was pointing out how strongly linked cotton production and slavery were, and how thus the South were deeply protective of slavery as it made King Cotton possible.
     
  8. unionblue

    unionblue Brev. Brig. Gen'l Member of the Year

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    Makes sense to me when you explain it like that. :wink:
     
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  9. Rebforever

    Rebforever Captain

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    How much Egyptian cotton was England buying and in what year?
     
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  10. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    As moderator. Thread closed pending splitting the reconstruction stuff from the non reconstruction stuff may take most of the day.
     
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  11. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Reopened
     
  12. Rebforever

    Rebforever Captain

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  13. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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  14. Rebforever

    Rebforever Captain

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    Change your opinion? Heavens no!! Info, yes.
     
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  15. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    A URL is not much info. Don't give out reading assignments.
     
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  16. mobile_96

    mobile_96 First Sergeant

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    in lbs.. U.S............Egypt........total imports United Kingdom
    1861...819,500,528....40,892,096...............958,696,816
    1862....13,524,224....59,012,464...............309,258,768
    1863.....6,394,080....93,552,368...............428,731,632
    1864....14,198,658...125,493,648...............649,400,080*
    *Source: Statistical Abstract for the United Kingdom for
    1861-1875 (London, 1876. pp 50-51); taken from
    "The Economic Impact of the American Civil War" by Ralph Andreano.
    Now, the drop for UK in 1862 was not destabilizing because there were record amounts of cotton from the previous 2 years, and warehouses of finished product that were not selling well. There were already, in UK, talks of some slowdowns in the cotton industry to allow supplies to come back in line with demand. I also read that companies in England even sold some cotton back to the U.S. for up to 1.00/lb. during the 1st years of the war {Sorry, think my source for
    this is from either Nevins or Battle Cry of Freedom by McPherson.]
     
  17. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Captain

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    Great info! Just to add the UK also imported a fair amount of cotton from British India and some from Brazil.
    Leftyhunter
     
  18. Harvey Johnson

    Harvey Johnson Sergeant

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    1. Even though Egyptian cotton shipments to the UK tripled during the war, at their peak they represented only about 15% of the amount imported from the American South in 1861.

    2. A UK government analysis reported that cotton inventories dropped from 1.2 million bales in 1861 to 0.2 million at the start of the summer of 1862 when less than one third of the Manchester cotton mills were operating full time and the industry payroll had dropped by 60%.*

    * Howard Jones Blue and Gray Diplomacy, 163
     
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  19. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Captain

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    True but as others noted the British bought extra cotton on 1861 in case of an American Civil War. By 1864 the UK could import approximately 2/3rds of its 1861 cotton imports.
    Getting back to the OP was the ACW a result of a nefarious conspiracy of Northern business men? If so based on what sourced information?
    Leftyhunter
     
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  20. mobile_96

    mobile_96 First Sergeant

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    1. I find the figures more interesting when we look at the amount of Egyptian cotton imported
    compared to total Imports for the CW years, and not just against the U.S. numbers.
    Kinda shows Egypt's actual importance in the cotton trade in the world at that time.
    ......4.265% of All UK imports 1861
    ....19.081% of All UK Imports 1862
    ....21.820% of All UK Imports 1863
    ....19.932% of All UK Imports 1864
    2. Think something must be a bit off, this shows inventories dropping to(edited from ..by..) 1/6 vs. only a 1/3 drop in total imports. Left out on the production rates, few workers were on the job full time, but most were working 2-3 days a wk. Maybe it reflects the selling of cotton back to the U.S. , although I think it likely only happened toward the middle of the war.
    The 60% pay roll drop, for 1862 sounds fair, considering the 2/3 drop in imports, combined with the layoffs/slowdowns created by the full warehouses of unsold cotton goods in that time period.
    What info do you have on production rates, and Payroll Drop for the rest of the war, when imports were rising again??
    So now, to get back to the OP. Was it possible that the ACW was a nefarious conspiracy
    of Northern business men, combined with British cotton industry men, to take advantage
    of the South. Maybe India and Brazil were involved also, in an effort to increase their own exports??
    Possibilities are endless here, but, in my own little reading, I've never seen anything that points to a effort to Loot the South. Only looting done was by slave owners Looting the labor of a certain class of Men and Women and Children for their own benefit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
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