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Looting the South Split from Uncivil Action: Was Lincoln Wrong on Secession?

Discussion in 'Civil War History - Secession and Politics' started by Old_Glory, Jan 29, 2017.

  1. Andersonh1

    Andersonh1 1st Lieutenant

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    And it's impossible to correctly understand and evaluate the past when we pass judgment because they didn't behave as we think they should have. I'll go back to Roman slavery.... do we spend all of our time condemning the Romans for having slaves, or do we try to study and understand it as a part of that civilization?

    I think the South is held to a different standard, for a number of reasons. I think when it's our own ox being gored, things are different.
     
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  3. ForeverFree

    ForeverFree Captain

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    Of course people challenged Lincoln. I would not expect any less, and I would not hope for any less. But did Lincoln strike a fatal blow at the "at the supremacy of law, and the authority of the State and federal constitutions?" Well, you'll have to prove that.

    But for sure, it did strike a fatal blow at the notion of unilateral secession.

    - Alan
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
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  4. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Lincoln felt a lot of things I am sure.
     
  5. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    As I recall you offer nothing to further the discussion.
     
  6. Lost Cause

    Lost Cause Sergeant Major

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    Your opinion is noted.
     
  7. cash

    cash Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    By your own position here, since abolition was accomplished through legal means, and since the law prevented compensating owners for loss of their slaves, it was not looting.
     
  8. ForeverFree

    ForeverFree Captain

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    I would just remind folks that 40% of the Confederate population was of African descent, just about all enslaved. "The South" was not solidly behind slavery. Indeed, the actions of the enslaved during the war - which one historian called the greatest slave rebellion in history - shows us what this degraded class thought of the institution.

    Slavery was not something that a monolith of "Southerners" believed in. It was something that 60% of Confederates imposed on 40% of Confederates by force.

    I believe it is false to say that proclaiming slavery was wrong represents a modern day judgement of slavery. In fact, it represents the view of the Southerners who were held in captivity, whose numbers were substantial. I understand they were in the minority - but they were Southerners, too... right?

    - Alan
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
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  9. Malingerer

    Malingerer Sergeant Major

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    Couple of things:
    1. Going back to ancient Roman civilization- I can condemn all sorts of aspects of what they did including slavery while still appreciating their tile baths and togas. I can hold more than one thought in my head at a time.
    2. That's my ox being gored too - my gggf was a private in the 3rd Mississippi and I am a seventh generation Mississippian and while it may be tough to listen to someone from New Jersey tell me what's wrong with my region, it doesn't mean they don't have a point especially when it comes to slavery and the War Between the States.
     
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  10. Drew

    Drew Captain

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    I don't really want to own a dog in the direction this conversation has gone, but the major export in the U.S., mid-19th century, was raw cotton and not New England's finished products.

    Just sayin'.
     
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  11. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Your opinion about my opinion about your opinion is noted. Without evidence, it is hard to tell who is right.
     
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  12. Kenneth Almquist

    Kenneth Almquist Corporal

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    That scenario is hard to imagine--what would the Confederates be supplying in Massachusetts?--but the possible repercussions are limited by the policy Lincoln laid out in his First Inaugural Address:

    In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war.... You can have no conflict, without being yourselves the aggressors.​

    If the Confederacy had decided to use its navy to ship food from South Carolina to Massachusetts, I don't think the Lincoln Administration would have interfered.
     
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  13. unionblue

    unionblue Brev. Brig. Gen'l Member of the Year

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    Like I said, we are left with historical fact, not dreams or wishing what might have been.
     
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  14. unionblue

    unionblue Brev. Brig. Gen'l Member of the Year

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    Just agreein' with your sayin'.
     
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  15. Andersonh1

    Andersonh1 1st Lieutenant

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    Only about a third of families in the South owned slaves. Slavery was a minority institution even there, despite the fact that those who owned slaves had power and influence in that society out of proportion to their numbers as a part of the population.

    And I would say this: if you're going to accuse me of carelessly ignoring or discounting black Southerners, please don't then turn around and do the reverse, and carelessly indict all white Southerners for slavery. I know it's currently en vogue to try and tie everyone to it somehow, so the entire South can be judged guilty. But when individual owners account for less than 10% of the white population, and even when families are counted the percentage only rises to about 33%, we don't need to paint with a broad brush.

    And that's not quite what I said. I said that after thousands of years of human history where slavery was accepted worldwide, to demand that all people everywhere realize at the same time that it was wrong and needed to end is unrealistic.

    And again, you're assuming that only the black population in the South had any objection to slavery, which is demonstrably untrue. I don't know the percentage of the white population that objected, but it did exist.
     
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  16. Lost Cause

    Lost Cause Sergeant Major

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    Opinions aside, evidence has been presented in other threads that are probably swirling at the bottom of Charleston Harbor :frantic:.

    I believe you are right. At that point,
    The hope for peaceful resolution was bleak and the path to war was a forgone conclusion.

    Perhaps, however, don't forget the proximity of the start of the American Revolution.
     
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  17. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    That brings up a good point, had the Confederates sent ships to assist the 1776 revolutionaries in Charleston Boston, history could have been very different.
     
  18. Lost Cause

    Lost Cause Sergeant Major

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    The ships armed with cotton.
     
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  19. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Bales of cotton make good protection for fortifications. A bit of nitric acid and sulfuric acid and you have gun cotton.
     
  20. Malingerer

    Malingerer Sergeant Major

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    LOL. I've made nitrocellulose in my lab for the entertainment of my undergrad helpers. Let's not mention that to the Chancellor.
     
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  21. Lost Cause

    Lost Cause Sergeant Major

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    The "cotton bale battery."
     
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