Looking For Information on a Musket

ironmannf

Private
Joined
Aug 13, 2019
Location
New Fairfield, Connecticut
Hello All,
I was at a local gun shop today and found an interesting musket there. The musket appears to be a .54 cal. Austrian style musket with the top of the barrel stamped "WENZEL". The musket is missing the rear sight and has an Enfield hammer on it, other than that it looks to be in good condition. The owner told me that he thought that the musket was Civil War era but I have no idea if that's true or not so I figured that this site is the best place to find out what this musket really is. Any assistance is greatly appreciated!

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If this is a Lorenz shouldn't it be marked Lorenz?

Josef von Lorenz was the superintendent of the rifle factory at the Austrian Army's (k.k. Army) Vienna arsenal, and was the designer of the rifle. One doesn't find the U.S. Army's M-1 rifles marked "Garand."

This particular Muster 1854 System Lorenz rifle musket was manufactured by Franz Waenzel (AKA: Wänzel and Wänzl), a k.k. Army arms contractor who operated a military firearms factory in Vienna until 1866. He subsequently designed the Muster 1867 System Wänzl breechloading rifle, which was a trapdoor style breechloading conversion system for the Lorenz weapons used by the k.k. Army to convert over 300,000 weapons.

The guy is asking 1k for it. Do you think its worth that in the condition it's in?

Based upon its condition no: $800 maybe, given that some restoration is necessary. System Lorenz hammers are readily available, as are Type I rear sights. If its a Type II rifle - the slot for the rear sight is not shown in your photographs - it is another matter. Original Type II long range leaf sights in good condition would be in the $150 range when you can find one.

The attribution to a specific soldier is another matter, and always adds value to a weapon. The National Park Service's Soldiers and Sailors system lists only one E. (Edmund) Oneil/O'Neil, who was a sergeant in Company H, 1st North Carolina Infantry Regiment (Federal).

So, it becomes a judgement call. What's it worth to you?

Regards,
Don Dixon
 
Josef von Lorenz was the superintendent of the rifle factory at the Austrian Army's (k.k. Army) Vienna arsenal, and was the designer of the rifle. One doesn't find the U.S. Army's M-1 rifles marked "Garand."

This particular Muster 1854 System Lorenz rifle musket was manufactured by Franz Waenzel (AKA: Wänzel and Wänzl), a k.k. Army arms contractor who operated a military firearms factory in Vienna until 1866. He subsequently designed the Muster 1867 System Wänzl breechloading rifle, which was a trapdoor style breechloading conversion system for the Lorenz weapons used by the k.k. Army to convert over 300,000 weapons.



Based upon its condition no: $800 maybe, given that some restoration is necessary. System Lorenz hammers are readily available, as are Type I rear sights. If its a Type II rifle - the slot for the rear sight is not shown in your photographs - it is another matter. Original Type II long range leaf sights in good condition would be in the $150 range when you can find one.

The attribution to a specific soldier is another matter, and always adds value to a weapon. The National Park Service's Soldiers and Sailors system lists only one E. (Edmund) Oneil/O'Neil, who was a sergeant in Company H, 1st North Carolina Infantry Regiment (Federal).

So, it becomes a judgement call. What's it worth to you?

Regards,
Don Dixon
I forgot to get a picture of the rear sight slot. If my memory serves me correctly I believe that the rear slot was between 3/4" to 1" wide...I don't know if that helps determine which type it would be? The stamp say E Oneil CO C...could this could be a fake stamp or were soldiers able to change companies?
 
The stamp say E Oneil CO C...could this could be a fake stamp or were soldiers able to change companies?

Soldiers were transferred to different companies all the time.
While the rosters here are truncated before getting to the O's, note the service transfer of other men in the same Regiment (and company).

Regiment's history http://www.ncgenweb.us/ncuv/collins1.htm

There's no O'Neil listed in the 2nd NC Infantry's Pension Indexes, either for Company C or E. Hmmm. https://www.fold3.com/browse/

Note that there was an Edmund O'Neil (b.1840 d.1901) in the 2nd VT, who appears to have spent all of his service in Co G.

His Pension Index, should you know someone with a FOLD3 account https://www.fold3.com/image/27501254


So, next question - which Regiments were issued .54 cal Lorenz rifles?

@Don Dixon already did that homework
 
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Thank you for the information! I was just searching the National Park Service records and found an Edward O'Neal aka Edwin Oneil, 6th Regiment Kentucky Cavalry, Company C, Union. Did the Cavalry use long rifles?
Scroll up to the link of Don Dixon's list, he has the 15th KY Cavalry receiving Austrian weapons.
 
Edmund O'Neil (b.1840 d.1901) in the 2nd VT, who appears to have spent all of his service in Co G.
Are we sure that the letter "C" is actually a "C"? Looks like it could be a "G"
 
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