Looking back on the whole bloody mess, I truly believe that it was completely pointless EXCEPT as a maneuver to obliterate southern independence.

Potomac Pride

Sergeant Major
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Location
Georgia
The Founding Fathers of the United States called for an insurrection that led to their freedom and they based their right to insurrection and Revolution, on the principles they chose to justify it in the Declaration of Independence. The South was willing to gain their independence by the DoI, yet they would deny its principles to their slaves?
Many of the founding fathers owned slaves such as George Washington, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson.
 

Belfoured

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
It wasn't because Lee thought Hill was too soft on "those people".

"A Yankee mixes a certain number of wooden nutmegs, which cost him 1/4 cent apiece, with a quantity of real nutmegs, worth 4 cents apiece, and sells the whole assortment for $44; and gains $3.75 by the fraud. How many wooden nutmegs were there"?
D.H. Hill
Instead of spending time cooking up those knee-slappers, Harvey should have figured out how to avoid dropping cigars and copies of orders all over northern Maryland and then - in Lee's eyes, at least - lying about those orders after the war.

"A Confederate General is given a copy of orders telling him what his division and everybody else's divisions are supposed to do and where; a copy of the same orders is found in a field wrapped around two cigars; and the General misstates the content of the orders later. Which Confederate General was missing some good cigars on September 13, 1862?"
 
You are right it wasn't the Irish, it was the old-line New England and New York Yankee trans-Atlantic chattel profiteers.
As for your quote from a sick puppy one of my favourites from a disease ridden one:
'Then came the Black Hawk War; and I was elected a Captain of Volunteers, a success which gave me more pleasure than any I have had since.”

Abraham Lincoln, December 20, 1859.

This quote is flagrantly taken out of context. Lincoln answered the call from the Illinois governor for all able bodied men to report for militia duty because of threatened attacks by Sauk Indians on the surrounding New Salem area where Lincoln lived with a fellow employee, William C. Greene, at Denton Offutt's local general store. For joining the local militia, both Lincoln and Greene will each receive 40 acres of land from the State of Illinois. Prior to his enlistment in the militia, Lincoln had recently lost his very first election for the Illinois State House because voters found his style of public speaking awkward although he is already locally known for his extreme honesty. The loss sent Lincoln into a depression since his goals at that point of his life were have his own roof over his head and to be elected to public office.

Once all the volunteers assembled, the governor asked them to nominate 2 men for the one position of captain of the militia company. The men nominated local, rich business owner William Kirkpatrick, and Abraham Lincoln, due to his local wrestling record and his reputation of honesty. The men of the company were instructed to vote for their choice of captain by standing behind their favored candidate. Three-quarters of the men lined up behind Lincoln. With the voting ended, Lincoln stated to Greene, "I'LL be damned, Bill, I've beat him!"

Lincoln spent the bulk of his time in the militia camp; on local patrols without ever seeing an Indian, or to bury soldiers who had been killed in earlier skirmishes with the Sauk. Lincoln never saw and Indian nor fired a shot during his time with the militia. Lincoln's election as the Company Captain is his very first time he was voted for and won. It was this incident that led him to fondly claim years later "Then came the Black Hawk War; and I was elected a Captain of Volunteers, a success which gave me more pleasure than any I have had since.”

In 1848 while Lincoln was a member of the U.S. House of Representatives he gave the following short speech in response to Democrat presidential candidate, General Lewis Cass's sarcastic attempt to make Lincoln a military hero:

“By the way, Mr. Speaker, do you know I am a military hero? Yes, sir; in the days of the Black Hawk War, I fought, bled, and came away. Speaking of General Cass's career reminds me of my own. I was not at Stillman's defeat, but I was about as near it as Cass to Hull's surrender; and, like him, I saw the place very soon afterward. It is quite certain I did not break my sword, for I had none to break; but I bent my musket pretty badly on one occasion.

"If General Cass went in advance of me in picking whortleberries, I guess I surpassed him in charges upon the wild onions. If he saw any live, fighting Indians, it was more than I did, but I had a good many bloody struggles with the mosquitoes; and although I never fainted from loss of blood, I can truly say I was often very hungry.”
 

GwilymT

First Sergeant
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Location
Pittsburgh
I am pretty sure Davis wasn't referring to all the people in the US. I'm pretty sure D.H. Hill wasn't either:

"A meddling Yankee troubles himself about everybody's matters except his own and repents of everybody's sins except his own." -- General Daniel Harvey Hill
Davis certainly was, that sick puppy, as evidenced by the quote you put up.
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Davis certainly was, that sick puppy, as evidenced by the quote you put up.
Unlike the supposedly honest Abe Jeff actually was honest.


“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

Abraham Lincoln

 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
Partial quotes, freezing them in time, never, ever, giving a whole statement or picture of a man with a complete source.

The dance continues with the music carefully chosen by the band leader for his own enjoyment and not for the benefit or education of others.

It teaches nothing, and gives nothing to learn of worth. It's a series of letters strung together for self-satisfaction.

History?

Hardly.
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Partial quotes, freezing them in time, never, ever, giving a whole statement or picture of a man with a complete source.

The dance continues with the music carefully chosen by the band leader for his own enjoyment and not for the benefit or education of others.

It teaches nothing, and gives nothing to learn of worth. It's a series of letters strung together for self-satisfaction.

History?

Hardly.
Yes, complete sources are always nice I hope we see more of them. :rolleyes:
 

Belfoured

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Unlike the supposedly honest Abe Jeff actually was honest.


“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

Abraham Lincoln

Really? Governor Vance would vehemently disagree about Jeff's "honesty". Only for example, he accused Davis of "not keep[ing] faith with ... local troops," who were "transfer[red] to the regular service" in "violation of their enlistment agreement". The mythology is exposed.
 

Piedone

Corporal
Joined
Oct 8, 2020
Partial quotes, freezing them in time, never, ever, giving a whole statement or picture of a man with a complete source.

The dance continues with the music carefully chosen by the band leader for his own enjoyment and not for the benefit or education of others.

It teaches nothing, and gives nothing to learn of worth. It's a series of letters strung together for self-satisfaction.

History?

Hardly.
Without commenting on single posts I am quite sure that @CSA Today just tries to establish some kind of a counterweight in this debate.

It is simply not correct to identify the Union as thoroughly motivated by the desire to realise emancipation.
I deem it quite obvious that this for a rather long time was not the intention - it was (as far as I know) (and without regarding a rather small group of real abolitionists) adopted because it was an efficient way to undermine the legitimation of the Confederacy and readily and increasingly used as a propagandistic mean.
(I am not saying that emancipation was not a great idea - absolutely to the contrary!)

Hence I am also a bit perplexed about how easily a black and white-picture is sometimes painted by some...
 
Really? Governor Vance would vehemently disagree about Jeff's "honesty". Only for example, he accused Davis of "not keep[ing] faith with ... local troops," who were "transfer[red] to the regular service" in "violation of their enlistment agreement". The mythology is exposed.
As did Governor Brown of Georgia who had been preparing his state since 1857 for a possible withdrawal from the Union and had become an enthusiastic supporter of Jefferson Davis and the Confederacy until the passage of the April 1862 Conscription Act when his feelings toward Davis and the Richmond based government turned into feelings of betrayal and bitterness. Brown believed that President Davis and the Confederate government had become despotic just like the Federal government. Following the Act's passage, the Governor contacted Alexander Stephens in July 1862, by letter in which he wrote "I deeply regreat [sic] that the President, whom I have regarded as a leading State Rights man, should have given his adhesion to the doctrine of unlimited congressional powers. ... I entered into this revolution to contribute my humble mite to sustain the rights of the states and prevent the consolidation of the Government."

Governor Brown's bitterness toward Davis grew and continued as the war progressed.

Source used:
The Georgia Historical Quarterly
Vol. 64, No. 1 (Spring, 1980), pg. 53
 

Belfoured

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Without commenting on single posts I am quite sure that @CSA Today just tries to establish some kind of a counterweight in this debate.

It is simply not correct to identify the Union as thoroughly motivated by the desire to realise emancipation.
I deem it quite obvious that this for a rather long time was not the intention - it was (as far as I know) (and without regarding a rather small group of real abolitionists) adopted because it was an efficient way to undermine the legitimation of the Confederacy and readily and increasingly used as a propagandistic mean.
(I am not saying that emancipation was not a great idea - absolutely to the contrary!)

Hence I am also a bit perplexed about how easily a black and white-picture is sometimes painted by some...
"Hence I am also a bit perplexed about how easily a black and white-picture is sometimes painted by some..."

Sure. Of course, the devil in the details is defining "some". Who, by the way, posted that "the Union [was] thoroughly motivated by the desire to realize emancipation"? As an aside, just as painting "black and white pictures" is inaccurate, so is stating that millions of people ("the Union") were "motivated" by a single intention.
 

Rebforever

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Without commenting on single posts I am quite sure that @CSA Today just tries to establish some kind of a counterweight in this debate.

It is simply not correct to identify the Union as thoroughly motivated by the desire to realise emancipation.
I deem it quite obvious that this for a rather long time was not the intention - it was (as far as I know) (and without regarding a rather small group of real abolitionists) adopted because it was an efficient way to undermine the legitimation of the Confederacy and readily and increasingly used as a propagandistic mean.
(I am not saying that emancipation was not a great idea - absolutely to the contrary!)

Hence I am also a bit perplexed about how easily a black and white-picture is sometimes painted by some...
I have made a statement on Civilwartalk, many times that Slavery was a big stain on the USA history and am glad slavery was nipped in the bud when it was.
 

OpnCoronet

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Feb 23, 2010
Many of the founding fathers owned slaves such as George Washington, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson.
True enough and those men, et. al., expressed doubts expressed their concerns for the unity of the new nation they had formed, because of the fact of a nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men were created equal, could probably not long endure both half free and half slave. Yes, Lincoln was not the first to see the dangers of slavery in a Republic governed for and by all its people.
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Really? Governor Vance would vehemently disagree about Jeff's "honesty". Only for example, he accused Davis of "not keep[ing] faith with ... local troops," who were "transfer[red] to the regular service" in "violation of their enlistment agreement". The mythology is exposed.
Yet, Vance changed as the war on. He was elected governor of North Carolina on the Conservative Party ticket. The Conservative Party generally opposed many of the president's policies. By the 1864 election, Vance had switched to the pro-Davis Confederate Party where he soundly trounced his Conservative opponent William Holden.
 

Belfoured

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Yet, Vance changed as the war on. He was elected governor of North Carolina on the Conservative Party ticket. The Conservative Party generally opposed many of the president's policies. By the 1864 election, Vance had switched to the pro-Davis Confederate Party where he soundly trounced his Conservative opponent William Holden.
Whether Vance and Davis eventually became aligned politically is a completely different matter from whether Vance would support your "Honest Jeff" accolade. That's the trouble with accolades. And - just so we're clear and not getting lost in the fog here - "Dishonest Abe" actually took an action that is the exact opposite of "denigrating" of the DOI. "Honest Jeff" vehemently opposed that - conduct that does "denigrate" the DOI. We appear to be on the odd circumstance where "dishonesty" - if that is what it is - is actually a positive value, as opposed to admitting to, and sticking to, abhorrent views.
 

Potomac Pride

Sergeant Major
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Location
Georgia
True enough and those men, et. al., expressed doubts expressed their concerns for the unity of the new nation they had formed, because of the fact of a nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men were created equal, could probably not long endure both half free and half slave. Yes, Lincoln was not the first to see the dangers of slavery in a Republic governed for and by all its people.
That is a nebulous response but thanks for your comments anyway.
 

Piedone

Corporal
Joined
Oct 8, 2020
"Hence I am also a bit perplexed about how easily a black and white-picture is sometimes painted by some..."

Sure. Of course, the devil in the details is defining "some". Who, by the way, posted that "the Union [was] thoroughly motivated by the desire to realize emancipation"? As an aside, just as painting "black and white pictures" is inaccurate, so is stating that millions of people ("the Union") were "motivated" by a single intention.
Well...maybe I was misunderstanding something.
But I‘d say neither Davis was a „puppy“ nor Lincoln was „disease ridden“
and I am somehow convinced that such is nobody‘s real historical assessment
but rather a mere reaction
because (as I said before) somebody feels the need to counterbalance something....
 

Belfoured

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Well...maybe I was misunderstanding something.
But I‘d say neither Davis was a „puppy“ nor Lincoln was „disease ridden“
and I am somehow convinced that such is nobody‘s real historical assessment
but rather a mere reaction
because (as I said before) somebody feels the need to counterbalance something....
That's fine - I was simply confirming that you weren't limiting the concept of painting a "black and white picture" to posters expressing only a certain side of the "debate".
 

Similar threads

Top