London Armory Co. P53 Enfield

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Greetings eveyone, This is my first post, nice to be a part "Civil War Talk." So I recently added an original P53 enfield to my collection. To my surprise it is a very rare LAC. from a large old collection of muskets, that a reputable dealer bought and was now selling. Lockplate stamped LA. Co. 1862, stock with roundel cartouche, and rounded washers on the lockplate screws. However the barrel does not match the stock or hammer in condition, stock has quite a bit of burnout behind nipple, hammer is a replacement, its not the plain london armory hammer , and is in well used shape like the stock. No LAC. stampings on barrel or rear sight. disasembly revealed on bottom of barrel G CARR, stamped and some faint hashmarks. There is a lot of blueing left on barrel, looks like it was not fired much. Stock appears to have what looks like fresh cuts in wood for barrel fitting maybe. There is also what looks to be a U.S. Gov. cartouche on left stock flat Civil war provenance maybe, looks like LL in an oval. Opinion on is this a post war piece together or maybe confederate refurbished late in the war. Why would it have the wrong hammer and probably barrel ,but stock and lockplate seem 100 percent correct. Barrel bands are the Palmer bands. All brass very dark patina matching stock.
 
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20181104_203933 (1).jpg
20181104_204406.jpg
20181104_203902.jpg
20181104_203633.jpg
20181104_204038 (1).jpg
20181104_204339.jpg
20181104_204511.jpg
20181104_204320.jpg
20181104_203828.jpg
20181104_203933 (1).jpg
20181104_204406.jpg
20181104_203902.jpg
20181104_203633.jpg
20181104_204038 (1).jpg
20181104_204339.jpg
20181104_204511.jpg
Greetings eveyone, This is my first post, nice to be a part "Civil War Talk." So I recently added an original P53 enfield to my collection. To my surprise it is a very rare LAC. from a large old collection of muskets, that a reputable dealer bought and was now selling. Lockplate stamped LA. Co. 1862, stock with roundel cartouche, and rounded washers on the lockplate screws. However the barrel does not match the stock or hammer in condition, stock has quite a bit of burnout behind nipple, hammer is a replacement, its not the plain london armory hammer , and is in well used shape like the stock. No LAC. stampings on barrel or rear sight. disasembly revealed on bottom of barrel G CARR, stamped and some faint hashmarks. There is a lot of blueing left on barrel, looks like it was not fired much. Stock appears to have what looks like fresh cuts in wood for barrel fitting maybe. There is also what looks to be a U.S. Gov. cartouche on left stock flat Civil war provenance maybe, looks like LL in an oval. Opinion on is this a post war piece together or maybe confederate refurbished late in the war. Why would it have the wrong hammer and probably barrel ,but stock and lockplate seem 100 percent correct. Barrel bands are the Palmer bands. All brass very dark patina matching stock.
 
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lelliott19

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@Private Smith Since you don't care for the mismatched hammer and barrel, why dont you just pack it up and send it to me? Christmas is coming, you know? :D

@Jobe Holiday weren't the LACo guns imported to the US the only ones to have Crown / VR marking on the lockplate? Seems I recall reading somewhere that every LACo example known so far has the VR - even those with CS import marks?

Paging @Lanyard Puller @Craig L Barry
 
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mofederal

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Hello and welcome to the talk forum from Southeast Missouri located on the banks of the muddy Mississippi River. Thanks for posting the photos. A nice looking Enfield Rifle.
 

Lanyard Puller

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Welcome to the forum.

Is the buttplate numbered on your P53? {precise hand engraved large numbers reading from muzzle to butt}
Is there a "K" stamped in front of the butt plate tang in the wood ?
The cartouche on the left side opposite the lock appears to be the "S.L"., for Samuel Little, London War Dept. Viewer and gun stock specialist.... The George Carr mark under the barrel adds to the mystery.

Still unsure on this girl but it's leaning strongly to a parts gun at this point, as you speculated.
 
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There are no numbers on the buttplate, or any other markings or stampings other than whats seen in the pictures, ramrod looks to have SK stamped on it though. As far as the G.Carr stamping on the bottom of the barrel, there are I think p56 enfields that are marked Carr on the lockplates. I found one account of George Carr mentioned as a leather maker, in London turned arms dealer during the civil war, or something to that effect. Thought hopefully this gun might have been assembled over in London during the civil war from stock parts of LAC. and a George Carr london barrel and bands. Thinking maybe they were trying to get as many guns as fast as possible to send over to the U.S.
 

Craig L Barry

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Yeah, I think this is another piece put together from various parts...usually when things are mismatched as they are here, that is the most likely explanation. As Jobe notes, the lock has WD markings, but the rear swivel is not oval and barrel bands are not the Baddeley patent, as you expect on a government contract piece from 1862. Lanyard Puller has the right of it.
 

Lanyard Puller

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Craig and Jobe are correct in their evaluations, IMHO. I'll post a few photos of CSA imported L.A. Co. Ptn 1853 inventory number "859". These guns were very well made and unlike all of the other contractor guns are fully interchangeable. {as were the War Department Enfields made by the Government for its use}

The ram rod is matching on this example but the bayonet is only "close" It was certainly in the same shipment. Interchangeable on L.A. Co... fortunately.
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Barrel marks on London Armory P53s. The "A" used on some parts is another LA Co. mark, also found on the Robbins & Lawrence "Windsor" contract Ptn. 1856 rifles
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A standard rear sight, but note how clean the soldering is. Replacement sights can be easily be spotted by the "spillage" around the base. No dovetail, no screws in to the barrel.
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lelliott19

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Craig and Jobe are correct in their evaluations, IMHO. I'll post a few photos of CSA imported L.A. Co. Ptn 1853 inventory number "859". These guns were very well made and unlike all of the other contractor guns are fully interchangeable. {as were the War Department Enfields made by the Government for its use}
WOW! That's a beautiful gun! :bounce:Thanks for sharing the pictures. :smile:
 

Package4

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Greetings eveyone, This is my first post, nice to be a part "Civil War Talk." So I recently added an original P53 enfield to my collection. To my surprise it is a very rare LAC. from a large old collection of muskets, that a reputable dealer bought and was now selling. Lockplate stamped LA. Co. 1862, stock with roundel cartouche, and rounded washers on the lockplate screws. However the barrel does not match the stock or hammer in condition, stock has quite a bit of burnout behind nipple, hammer is a replacement, its not the plain london armory hammer , and is in well used shape like the stock. No LAC. stampings on barrel or rear sight. disasembly revealed on bottom of barrel G CARR, stamped and some faint hashmarks. There is a lot of blueing left on barrel, looks like it was not fired much. Stock appears to have what looks like fresh cuts in wood for barrel fitting maybe. There is also what looks to be a U.S. Gov. cartouche on left stock flat Civil war provenance maybe, looks like LL in an oval. Opinion on is this a post war piece together or maybe confederate refurbished late in the war. Why would it have the wrong hammer and probably barrel ,but stock and lockplate seem 100 percent correct. Barrel bands are the Palmer bands. All brass very dark patina matching stock.
The barrel certainly does not go with the arm, the burn out behind the hammer would indicate that there should be a substantial amount of pitting on the barrel (around the nipple). The pipe also looks to be a re-blue, since it would appear to have bluing where there is some faint pitting (in the pitting). I believe that the stock has a good chance of being from a Confederate used weapon, due to said burnout, but that is just conjecture (Confederate percussion caps were much more corrosive than their northern cousins).
 
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