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Lincoln blockaded a state that had not seceded. North Carolina.

Discussion in 'Civil War History - Secession and Politics' started by 19thGeorgia, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. 19thGeorgia

    19thGeorgia Sergeant

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    Lincoln blockaded a state that had not seceded. North Carolina.
     
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  3. Jimklag

    Jimklag Captain Forum Host Silver Patron Trivia Game Winner

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    Really? What history books have you read?
     
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  4. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    The proper thing to do is ask for evidence.
     
  5. Jimklag

    Jimklag Captain Forum Host Silver Patron Trivia Game Winner

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    Indeed.
     
  6. thomas aagaard

    thomas aagaard 2nd Lieutenant

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    He actually did. In late April he ordered the blockaded expanded to cover Virginia and North Carolina.
    NC had not officially said they wanted to secede.

    But obviously they where already siding with the south...
    As Lincoln himself tell us:
    (...)And whereas, since that date, public property of the United States has been seized, the collection of the revenue obstructed, and duly commissioned officers of the United States, while engaged in executing the orders of their superiors, have been arrested and held in custody as prisoners, or have been impeded in the discharge of t heir official duties without due legal process, by persons Claiming to act under authorities"s of the States of Virginia and North Carolina..."

    https://www.archives.gov/files/education/lessons/images/union-blockade.pdf
     
  7. Jimklag

    Jimklag Captain Forum Host Silver Patron Trivia Game Winner

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    Lincoln declared a blockade on 4-20-1861, but it wasn't organized until the end of May. North Carolina seceded on 5-10-1861. With belligerent status, the U. S. Navy could keep any southern ship from entering any southern port. Source:
    s-l300-1.jpg
     
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  8. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    What I saw.
     
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  9. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Foreign ships too. However post 26 is correct as far as it goes.
     
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  10. Jimklag

    Jimklag Captain Forum Host Silver Patron Trivia Game Winner

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    Technically correct based on the date Lincoln declared the blockade. However, no ship was actually on blockade station off North Carolina until after they seceded.
     
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  11. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    First ask for evidence, then assemble your counter. Avoid statements that may let the opposition off the hook.
     
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  12. Jimklag

    Jimklag Captain Forum Host Silver Patron Trivia Game Winner

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    Post #26 stated Lincoln blockaded a state that had not seceded. What he did before they seceded was to say he would have that state blockaded.
     
  13. JerseyBart

    JerseyBart Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    The Presidential Oath of Office:

    I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

    Source: http://americanhistory.si.edu/presidency/1b2.html
     
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  14. Joshism

    Joshism First Sergeant

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    The NC governor ordered all lighthouses in North Carolina extinguished on 17 April 1861 in the wake of Fort Sumter, despite NC not having formally seceded. Lighthouses were Federal property over which the governor had no authority and extinguishing them was an action specifically aimed at coastal defense i.e. thwarting the US Navy. Ergo, the government of NC had engaged in acts of rebellion against the Federal government before the blockade declaration.

    Others might be able to point to NC seizing armories or other Federal property prior to 20 April 1861 that would further justify classifying NC as I'm rebellion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
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  15. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    Aftermath 1861: Further secessions and divisions
    April 15–16: Kentucky and North Carolina immediately refuse to provide troops in response to Lincoln's call. Tension and anger increase in the border states of Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, Virginia, and North Carolina. North Carolina troops seize Fort Caswell and Fort Johnston. On April 16, Virginia refuses to provide militia to suppress the rebellion.[365] On April 17, Missouri and Tennessee also refuse to meet the President's request for volunteers.[3
     
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  16. jgoodguy

    jgoodguy Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

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    I am not sure what 'secession' in this context has to do with anything, the only entity that recognized secession was (drum roll) was the self styled Confederate States of America. As noted above in posts #13 and #14 the insurrectionists that were in control of the North Carolina government engaged in acts of insurrection and rebellion. Neither proclamation of blockade mention secession.

    Proclamation 81—Declaring a Blockade of Ports in Rebellious States April 19, 1861
    Whereas an insurrection against the Government of the United States has broken out in the States of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas, and the laws of the United States for the collection of the revenue can not be effectually executed therein conformably to that provision of the Constitution which requires duties to be uniform throughout the United States; and

    Whereas a combination of persons engaged in such insurrection have threatened to grant pretended letters of marque to authorize the bearers thereof to commit assaults on the lives, vessels, and property of good citizens of the country lawfully engaged in commerce on the high seas and in waters of the United States; and

    Whereas an Executive proclamation has been already issued requiring the persons engaged in these disorderly proceedings to desist therefrom, calling out a militia force for the purpose of repressing the same, and convening Congress in extraordinary session to deliberate and determine thereon:

    Now, therefore, I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, with a view to the same purposes before mentioned and to the protection of the public peace and the lives and property of quiet and orderly citizens pursuing their lawful occupations until Congress shall have assembled and deliberated on the said unlawful proceedings or until the same shall have ceased, have further deemed it advisable to set on foot a blockade of the ports within the States aforesaid, in pursuance of the laws of the United States and of the law of nations in such case provided. For this purpose a competent force will be posted so as to prevent entrance and exit of vessels from the ports aforesaid. If, therefore, with a view to violate such blockade, a vessel shall approach or shall attempt to leave either of the said ports, she will be duly warned by the commander of one of the blockading vessels, who will indorse on her register the fact and date of such warning, and if the same vessel shall again attempt to enter or leave the blockaded port she will be captured and sent to the nearest convenient port for such proceedings against her and her cargo as prize as may be deemed advisable.

    And I hereby proclaim and declare that if any person, under the pretended authority of the said States or under any other pretense, shall molest a vessel of the United States or the persons or cargo on board of her, such person will be held amenable to the laws of the United States for the prevention and punishment of piracy.

    In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

    Done at the city of Washington, this 19th day of April, A.D. 1861, and of the Independence of the United States the eighty-fifth.

    ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

    By the President:

    WILLIAM H. SEWARD, Secretary of State .
    Abraham Lincoln: Proclamation 82—Extension of Blockade to Ports of Additional States
    April 27, 1861

    By the President of the United States of America
    A Proclamation

    Whereas, for the reasons assigned in my proclamation of the 19th instant, a blockade of the ports of the States of South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Texas was ordered to be established; and

    Whereas since that date public property of the United States has been seized, the collection of the revenue obstructed, and duly commissioned officers of the United States, while engaged in executing the orders or their superiors, have been arrested and held in custody as prisoners or have been impeded in the discharge of their official duties, without due legal process, by persons claiming to act under authorities of the State of Virginia and North Carolina, an efficient blockade of the ports of those States will also be established.

    In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

    Done at the city of Washington, this 27th day of April, A.D. 1861, and of the Independence of the United States the eighty-fifth.

    ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

    By the President:

    WILLIAM H. SEWARD, Secretary of State.

     
  17. NedBaldwin

    NedBaldwin Captain

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    So?

    Im not clear what the problem is. Lincoln's position was not no state had left the US, so from his perspective North Carolina was no different than South Carolina.

    Here the explanatory text from the proclamation that extended the blockade to VA and NC:

    Whereas since that date public property of the United States has been seized, the collection of the revenue obstructed, and duly commissioned officers of the United States, while engaged in executing the orders or their superiors, have been arrested and held in custody as prisoners or have been impeded in the discharge of their official duties, without due legal process, by persons claiming to act under authorities of the State of Virginia and North Carolina, an efficient blockade of the ports of those States will also be established.​

    That was done April 27. Prior to the 27th the Governor NC had ordered federal property seized including forts, arsenals, mints, custom houses. Prior to the 27th one of the tugs hired by the US government to accompany the expedition to Sumter had put in at Wilmington NC to escape storm. It was seized by the rebels and the crew put in prison. The rebels then obstructed the channel, shut down the lighthouses and declared that no shipping was allowed without a permit issued by the rebel commander.
     
  18. huskerblitz

    huskerblitz Captain Forum Host

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    What is your source on this? I'm not familiar enough with lighthouse history.
     
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  19. thomas aagaard

    thomas aagaard 2nd Lieutenant

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    during the period of 1851-1910 the lighthouses was managed by the "United States Lighthouse Board" under the department of the treasury.
    They where build by the army corp of engineers.

     
  20. huskerblitz

    huskerblitz Captain Forum Host

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    I saw that, but it only covers operation, not ownership as been claimed.

    Not that it matters a great deal. The seizure of lighthouses along a coastline of a state looking to secede is another "no-duh" situation as with any forts.
     
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  21. thomas aagaard

    thomas aagaard 2nd Lieutenant

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    when the federal government pay for building and maintaining something... they usually own it.


    I fully agree that seizure lighthouses was a logical thing to do... but then, so was treating the state as hostile.
     

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