Pickett Lee and Pickett Postwar

samgrant

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gary

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Like the link said and I'm basing this on my own readings, for Pickett, it was Gettysburg that gave him a bone of contention against Lee. For Lee, it was Pickett's absence and defeat at Five Forks because he was absent at a shad bake that incensed Lee so much that he referred to Pickett as "that man."

When Pickett complained to Mosby in the post-war era, Mosby pointed out that Lee had immortalized Pickett with that charge. Personally, I think it's poor consolation.
 
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gary said:
Like the link said and I'm basing this on my own readings, for Pickett, it was Gettysburg that gave him a bone of contention against Lee. For Lee, it was Pickett's absence and defeat at Five Forks because he was absent at a shad bake that incensed Lee so much that he referred to Pickett as "that man."

When Pickett complained to Mosby in the post-war era, Mosby pointed out that Lee had immortalized Pickett with that charge. Personally, I think it's poor consolation.

I thought that was Longstreet............?:shrug:
 
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Pickett blamed Lee for ordering the charge. Gary Gallenger in his book on Lee and the leadership of the ANV(name escaping me! "Lee and the Command of the ANV?") says that Lee lost his trust in Pickett when Pickett broke down in the immediate aftermath of the charge. Lee's theory was, if you can't command yourself, you can't command others. Pickett was absent his command for health and personal reasons too much for Lee's taste(after Gburg, according to Gallanger), so the shadbake absence was the last straw. To what degree(IMO) that Lee couldn't tolerate a angry resentful reminder of his greatest blunder, influenced his relationship with Pickett I couldn't say.
 

ole

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I thought that was Longstreet............?
Don't quite understand where you think Longstreet figures in except for Longstreet getting blamed by the Lost Cause crowd for Gettysburg, and Longstreet's defense against that blame. Am not familiar with particular hostility between the two.

ole
 

formerYank

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five forks

lee's animosity to pickett is from five forks, as far as i understand. pickett's absence from the front, about two miles i believe was inexcusible. having visited that place i learned of the acoustic anomaly that allowed pickett and friends to eat their fish totally unaware of the destruction of the army nearby. bad luck for him, and worse for the ANV. i don't blame lee a jot. his comment, "is that man still with the army?" is perfectly reasonable. can one picture general john adams, kia at franklin having anger towards lee (or hood) because of an ordered charge that went very badly? no! in fact, at franklin, adams was the total cavalier, the total gentleman, and hero. his last words, when given water by the yankees behind the works at the cotton gin, "it is the soldier's duty to die for his country", is the total opposite of pickett's response after the charge on the third day at Gettysburg. pickett is overrated. we only talk about him thanks to lasalle and general lee. folks like pickett get far more press than they merit. and general adams and gist and carter and granbury and strahl are but footnotes!? this is a cruelty and injustice of history that we as historians ought to rectify.
 

whitworth

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Interesting. . . .

that a great general, by the time of Five Forks, didn't know every Confederate death was in vain.
The war was lost; the United States was not going to accept anything but the total defeat of the Confederacy. And that was near at hand.
The many desertions in the last five months showed the common Confederate soldier understood it. The Confederacy could not protect its territory and was surely running out of supplies to field its armies.

Pickett's division got destroyed at Gettysburg, there is no doubt of that fact. But Lee had little choice, but attack. That was his opinion on the first day. Lee could not await an attack. Lee had led his army into a bad place, Gettysburg.

On the morning of July 3rd, Lee needed egress for his army, in the presense of a powerful foe. While he didn't get victory, Lee's army bought two egress roads for the army to escape back to Virginia, with its great sacrifice on July 3, with Pickett's Charge.

One Union general observed during the artillery barrage, that Lee was either going to attack or withdraw. Lee did both. July 3rd was the price the Confederate army paid to withdraw without destruction.
 

John S. Carter

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Like the link said and I'm basing this on my own readings, for Pickett, it was Gettysburg that gave him a bone of contention against Lee. For Lee, it was Pickett's absence and defeat at Five Forks because he was absent at a shad bake that incensed Lee so much that he referred to Pickett as "that man."

When Pickett complained to Mosby in the post-war era, Mosby pointed out that Lee had immortalized Pickett with that charge. Personally, I think it's poor consolation.
Is it true that Pickett wore perfume and ruge?
 

WJC

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Is it true that Pickett wore perfume and ruge?
I suggest you question your source. That's the first I've heard that charge. But then there are no limits to what some will claim to destroy another's reputation.
 

WJC

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Interesting. . . that a great general, by the time of Five Forks, didn't know every Confederate death was in vain.
What would you have suggested? The ANV was still in the field- it had not yet surrendered and was still fighting.
 

WJC

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Interesting. . . .
Pickett's division got destroyed at Gettysburg, there is no doubt of that fact. But Lee had little choice, but attack.
Lee always had a choice to fight or withdraw and fight elsewhere, particularly on July 3, 1863. That he chose to attack, in virtually the same manner but with fewer troops than in his unsuccessful assault of the previous day, remains controversial. One thing, though, is clear: Lee was correct when he told retreating soldiers, "It's all my fault."
 

WJC

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Interesting. . . .
On the morning of July 3rd, Lee needed egress for his army, in the presense of a powerful foe. While he didn't get victory, Lee's army bought two egress roads for the army to escape back to Virginia, with its great sacrifice on July 3, with Pickett's Charge.
One Union general observed during the artillery barrage, that Lee was either going to attack or withdraw. Lee did both. July 3rd was the price the Confederate army paid to withdraw without destruction.
Lee had available egress. There is nothing I've seen in the records that shows the assault of July 3, 1863 was meant to cover a withdrawal.
Lee actually wanted Meade to counterattack, either late July 3 or- better- on July 4. Some believe that had that happened, lee could have salvaged a victory.
 

John S. Carter

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five forks

lee's animosity to pickett is from five forks, as far as i understand. pickett's absence from the front, about two miles i believe was inexcusible. having visited that place i learned of the acoustic anomaly that allowed pickett and friends to eat their fish totally unaware of the destruction of the army nearby. bad luck for him, and worse for the ANV. i don't blame lee a jot. his comment, "is that man still with the army?" is perfectly reasonable. can one picture general john adams, kia at franklin having anger towards lee (or hood) because of an ordered charge that went very badly? no! in fact, at franklin, adams was the total cavalier, the total gentleman, and hero. his last words, when given water by the yankees behind the works at the cotton gin, "it is the soldier's duty to die for his country", is the total opposite of pickett's response after the charge on the third day at Gettysburg. pickett is overrated. we only talk about him thanks to lasalle and general lee. folks like pickett get far more press than they merit. and general adams and gist and carter and granbury and strahl are but footnotes!? this is a cruelty and injustice of history that we as historians ought to rectify.
Would the results had been the same if Longstreet had removed Pickett and replaced him with a more experienced commander say Early or even Hood ? Had Pickett any experience in command during a battle prior to Gettysburg ? Then if all you had to do was to charge in front of a fixed position and endure cannonade while doing so then any one would fit the bill.One wonders if all this would have mattered if Pickett had been killed during the charge.Early or Hood could not have taken charge but then if either could have?
 

John S. Carter

Sergeant Major
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Interesting. . . .

that a great general, by the time of Five Forks, didn't know every Confederate death was in vain.
The war was lost; the United States was not going to accept anything but the total defeat of the Confederacy. And that was near at hand.
The many desertions in the last five months showed the common Confederate soldier understood it. The Confederacy could not protect its territory and was surely running out of supplies to field its armies.

Pickett's division got destroyed at Gettysburg, there is no doubt of that fact. But Lee had little choice, but attack. That was his opinion on the first day. Lee could not await an attack. Lee had led his army into a bad place, Gettysburg.

On the morning of July 3rd, Lee needed egress for his army, in the presense of a powerful foe. While he didn't get victory, Lee's army bought two egress roads for the army to escape back to Virginia, with its great sacrifice on July 3, with Pickett's Charge.

One Union general observed during the artillery barrage, that Lee was either going to attack or withdraw. Lee did both. July 3rd was the price the Confederate army paid to withdraw without destruction.
The responsibility for the continuation of the war rest not with Lee but with Jefferson Davis.Davis was aware of the condition of the armies and yet continued the war.He saw the struggle as a second War of Independence and the Confederacy as the colonies and Lee as his Washington .Just as with the colonies the evil Union would surrender if the armies could endure just a little longer.Davis saw in Richmond the food riots and anti war protest .He had the reports from the armies ,he was aware of the conditions of the front.If fault is with Lee and the other generals it was that they to were caught in this belief that if only the Divine would give them a little more strength then as with the colonies they to would be victorious.
 
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