Lee’s escape from Gettysburg, the Invasion of Pennsylvania success or failure?

Tom Elmore

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#21
Here are the sunrise and sunset times in Gettysburg for July 4th 2018:

Sunrise 5:47:00 am Sunset 8:40:21 pm EDT

Since Daylight Savings Time was not around then, you have to subtract an hour from today's EDT. Sunrise was about 4:45 and sunset about 7:40. It is noted correctly in the video.
(All times local Gettysburg time, 1863, that is latitude 39 degrees, 50 minutes North, 77 degrees, 15 minutes West)
Sunrise July 1: 4:35 a.m.
Sunset July 1: 7:32 p.m.

Sunrise July 2: 4:35 a.m.
Sunset July 2: 7:32 p.m.

Sunrise July 3: 4:36 a.m.
Sunset July 3: 7:32 p.m.

As for war booty, John C. Applewhite of the 12th Mississippi wrote on July 28 that the Confederates brought back from Pennsylvania 1,400 horses and 7,000 cattle. That's consistent with other sources. For instance, in Adams County alone the reported loss was about 800 horses, 1,000 head of cattle, a dozen mules, over 200 hogs, over 400 sheep and at least 250 wagons and carriages. (Recollections of a Texas Colonel at Gettysburg, Robert M. Powell, 5th Texas)
 
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damYankee

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#22
I understand that the video is lengthy. I had hoped to have a discussion with those who have watched the entire film, with respects to those who have already started discussing the Those three days of battle.
With the weekend here perhaps more of ya wily e able to watch it.
Especially the sights where Lee sleep, where Custer stood, and see what the area looked like at the time off the battle.
It gives us more of a visual concept of the terrain, the challenges that faced both Lee and his pursuers.
 

damYankee

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#23
(All times local Gettysburg time, 1863, that is latitude 39 degrees, 50 minutes North, 77 degrees, 15 minutes West)
Sunrise July 1: 4:35 a.m.
Sunset July 1: 7:32 p.m.

Sunrise July 2: 4:35 a.m.
Sunset July 2: 7:32 p.m.

Sunrise July 3: 4:36 a.m.
Sunset July 3: 7:32 p.m.

As for war booty, John C. Applewhite of the 12th Mississippi wrote on July 28 that the Confederates brought back from Pennsylvania 1,400 horses and 7,000 cattle. That's consistent with other sources. For instance, in Adams County alone the reported loss was about 800 horses, 1,000 head of cattle, a dozen mules, over 200 hogs, over 400 sheep and at least 250 wagons and carriages. (Recollections of a Texas Colonel at Gettysburg, Robert M. Powell, 5th Texas)
The trains of of goods releaved from the rightful owners, aka citizens of Pennsylvania combined with the ambulances carrying wounded Confederates were over 15 miles long,
The storm that began as the Rebels withdrew was a calamitous one, rain came down in sheets, survivors from both sides stated the same thing, it was so dark a rider on a horse couldn’t see the animals head unless laminated by lightning or the flash from a gun.
The men charged with driving 60,000 head of livestock including sheep, pigs, horse and cattle had such a difficult time that Lee ordered all barns on the sides of the pike to be torched.
Confederate pioneers were ordered to work on the shoulders of the two pikes removing fences and brush, so foot soldiers could march on the shoulders of the roads.
 

Joshism

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Jupiter, FL
#24
Eric Wittenberg puts Stuart's actions into context as a supply raid.

Lee's interest in shifting the armies out of Virginia has long been well-known and widely accepted, but the emphasis on it being a supply raid first and foremost seems a more modern evaluation. Was Kent Masterson Brown the first to make a book-length argument to that effect?

Whether Gettysburg was successful depends largely on what Lee and Jeff Davis wanted and expected to accomplish.

GOOD FOR THE CSA

1. Virginia became a stalemate for the rest of the year and made Lee willing to send Longstreet west. Yes, there were operations like Bristoe and Mine Run, but these failed to produce anything resembling the fighting or casualties of 1862, 1864, or Chancellorsville & Gettysburg. As the CSA could potentially win by not losing that means such a stalemate favors the ANV.

2. Lots of supplies were gathered in PA, although the ANV was back in VA after only a month so it seems a shorter raid than desirable.

BAD FOR THE CSA

1. The ANV suffered very serious losses in men and officers, at a rate that was neither sustainable nor even particularly favorable against the AOTP.

2. The invasion had no effect on the Siege of Vicksburg.

3. The ANV failed to defeat the AOTP on northern soil.

4. The invasion really angered some Northerners in the north, especially in PA. In general, from a civilian and military morale and PR perspective it was good for the Union, although there have been some strong arguments Gettysburg was overshadowed by Vicksburg in the Confederacy.

There's a strong argument to be made that nothing Lee accomplished was worth the casualties he suffered. However, when you look at the campaign impact on the next sixth months of the war I think there's a good argument that it was a strategic victory for Lee.
 

MRB1863

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Dec 6, 2014
Messages
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Location
Lemoyne, PA (35 miles N. of Gettysburg)
#25
Here we may apply the biggest two letter word history teaches us..."IF"
IF Lee's primary mission into Pennsylvania was to resupply
IF Lee's objective was to capture a northern Capitol...If Harrisburg comes in your means, capture it...
IF the movement north was to draw the federal forces away from Richmond
If we knew the answers to many questions, we could better understand the decisions that shaped our history. Some of these reasons have perished with those who decided and will never be known except by conjecture.
 

rhettbutler1865

Colonel, CSA Cavalry
Silver Patron
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Feb 18, 2015
Messages
2,792
#26
I tried to watch the video, but that first guy with the ridiculous hat and nerd sunglasses was so irritating! Comparing Gettysburg to Vietnam--he simply liked the sound of his own voice (and as a former, and retired, actor and voice-over for television and film, I can say his voice was obnoxious). Aside from that (Boy, I must be cranky this morning :polar:), as a fan of "the gentleman soldier," I must say Lee's plan was far beyond the ANVs capabilities. It was doomed from the beginning. And to answer the question, was a miserable failure--if it had worked...IMHO, we might have two countries here. :smoke:
 



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