Restricted Largest Confederate Monument In The South Is Coming Down

DanSBHawk

Captain
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
Then why move it? WAs it taking up much needed space they needed for something else? Or was it because of something associated with history?
Well, he was a complicated guy. Arguing that all men are created equal, while holding slaves.

Secessionists vehemently disagreed with Jefferson about the all-men-created-equal remark.

Some people don't agree that he should be honored in a present-day city government building. A museum can explain more in depth, concerning his complicated views. And all locals can decide for themselves who should be honored in their public buildings.
 

JerryD

Private
Joined
Aug 23, 2021
Those who argue that Confederate statue removals don't erase history fail to appreciate that there are two sides to every war. Destroying the memorials to one side undeniably erases a part of that side's history.

Although it is increasingly common within academia and the media to assume there is only one side to the Civil War, it should not be that way in an online discussion forum.
Except that history is not being erased. Its just that this generation doesn't think these people deserve to be honored today. You can disagree with that if you want, and you are entitled to your opinion, but history remains the same. Edited to remove prohibited WW2 content Check your Civil War books. I bet nothing has changed since the Lee statute was taken away. I hear there is even a new book on Lee coming out, even though his statute was removed....so what, exactly, has been erased?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Stone in the wall

2nd Lieutenant
Asst. Regtl. Quartermaster Antietam 2021
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Location
Blue Ridge Mountains, Jefferson County WV
Because this generation does not think he is entitled to be honored. Its really just that simple. You can disagree about that, but that is the reason.
More like the second invasion from the north, coming down here to live, and wanting to change the way natives have always lived.
 

JerryD

Private
Joined
Aug 23, 2021
More like the second invasion from the north, coming down here to live, and wanting to change the way natives have always lived.
"down here"? You live in West Virginia. Solidly Union territory. Sounds like you are the one trying to change the way natives have always lived. (just joshing, btw, but couldnt resist). On a more serious note, though, your assumption is pretty flawed. Lots of native Virginians support the removal of the statute. Attitudes change over time, and what people once viewed favorably can later be viewed unfavorably. Its just the nature of things. You can rail against that, as is your right, but its kind of like trying to hold back the tide. The simple fact is that the Confederacy was at base built on a racist ideology and the desire to maintain that racist ideology, and most people today dont want to honor that.
 

Stone in the wall

2nd Lieutenant
Asst. Regtl. Quartermaster Antietam 2021
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Location
Blue Ridge Mountains, Jefferson County WV
"down here"? You live in West Virginia. Solidly Union territory. Sounds like you are the one trying to change the way natives have always lived. (just joshing, btw, but couldnt resist). On a more serious note, though, your assumption is pretty flawed. Lots of native Virginians support the removal of the statute. Attitudes change over time, and what people once viewed favorably can later be viewed unfavorably. Its just the nature of things. You can rail against that, as is your right, but its kind of like trying to hold back the tide. The simple fact is that the Confederacy was at base built on a racist ideology and the desire to maintain that racist ideology, and most people today dont want to honor that.
I'm Virginia born and family dates back to 1650's (Page County). West Va was not solid Union territory, that's a myth. It is also a good example of erasing history by improper education. Check in to it, 24 of 50 counties voted for secession from the Union, on May 23rd 1861. The whole country had been built on racist ideology, not just the southern states yet another myth.
 
Last edited:

Booklady

Sergeant
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Location
New England
Nope, you're wrong. Still there.
Digital books can and have been "edited" and, after purchase, even "disappeared" from devices. I was under the impression that even previously sold ebooks can be altered but I am probably wrong about that. I can't find confirmation and can't remember where I read it.

The only books revisionist historians can't alter and censor are the ones they can't get their hands on -- the physical ones on your shelf. Buy ones about today's controversial figures while you still can.
 

Booklady

Sergeant
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Location
New England
Well, he was a complicated guy. Arguing that all men are created equal, while holding slaves.

Secessionists vehemently disagreed with Jefferson about the all-men-created-equal remark.

Some people don't agree that he should be honored in a present-day city government building. A museum can explain more in depth, concerning his complicated views. And all locals can decide for themselves who should be honored in their public buildings.
It was a complicated time. A former poster here, a man vehement about "the war was about slavery and that's it," in a post to me once excused the inclusion of slavery into the Constitution because of political expediency. It was the only way the country could have been formed, he wrote.

It's hard for me to read Jefferson's letters to John Adams at the end of their lives and not feel some anger and disrespect for him for owning slaves, but I think we need to accept that most people are basically good, with some bad mixed in, and do the best they can. The days add up, our works accumulate little by little. Jefferson did a lot of good, and utopia, despite what some current political ideology holds, is not possible on this earth.
 

GwilymT

Sergeant Major
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Location
Pittsburgh
Digital books can and have been "edited" and, after purchase, even "disappeared" from devices. I was under the impression that even previously sold ebooks can be altered but I am probably wrong about that. I can't find confirmation and can't remember where I read it.

The only books revisionist historians can't alter and censor are the ones they can't get their hands on -- the physical ones on your shelf. Buy ones about today's controversial figures while you still can.
So you are raising an alarm for something you have no evidence for?
 

dlofting

First Sergeant
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
It's hard for me to read Jefferson's letters to John Adams at the end of their lives and not feel some anger and disrespect for him for owning slaves, but I think we need to accept that most people are basically good, with some bad mixed in, and do the best they can. The days add up, our works accumulate little by little. Jefferson did a lot of good, and utopia, despite what some current political ideology holds, is not possible on this earth.

I agree with what you've said here about people and this is why I think we should reconsider public monuments to individuals...that's not to say that existing monuments should all go. I just think that in this day and age when we have so much information about historical figures, with more available every day, maybe it's time to rethink this whole thing. We can still have monuments on battlefields for example and those that commemorate places where significant events took place, but maybe "heroes" need to belong to individuals.
 

Booklady

Sergeant
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Location
New England
So you are raising an alarm for something you have no evidence for?
I absolutely do not trust ebooks, companies that sell them, or publishers who market them. For just one example, I own my copy of 1984, unlike some people who purchased the ebook from Amazon a while ago. I own my copy of Huckleberry Finn as originally written by Mark Twain. Yeah, I don't have (at this moment...I'm still trying to find the things I have read that stuck the suspicion in my head) evidence that ebooks can be tampered with. If you look at my initial post that JerryD objected to, what I said was "don't count on everything remaining there," not that it had already been altered. I can certainly have an opinion about where current publishing decisions are headed. You and Jerry can disagree with me (like we disagree on so many other things). Be my guest.
 

ChargingStag

Cadet
Joined
Sep 24, 2021
Location
Wales, United Kingdom
Ok, so now that Lee's Statute in Richmond has been removed, what, exactly, has been erased. Cause I just went back and checked some of my history books, and everything is still there.
I think the 'erasing history' remark isn't meant to be taken too literally. I feel that 'erasing history' is more the idea that as markers, monuments, names, images - you name it - are taken down or otherwise removed from easy to see places, the subjects of those features start to fade from people's general knowledge. Soon they become obscure and only clear themselves up to those who already know what they're looking for. For everyone else that history may as well be erased metaphorically as those points of reference are gone, and now maybe they will have no reason to look into the period or the person further.

This is especially meaningful to me as a foreigner. The civil war may be taught as an essential module in history classes in the US, but here in the UK it is not an exaggeration to say that not a single speck of the American civil war is taught in schools. Most people here may only know that Lincoln was president and that it was something to do with slavery as their background knowledge and that's it. Show them a Confederate flag and they would probably just describe it as something rednecks wave around (that's unfortunately the stereotype portrayed here too). "Robert E Lee who?!"
I had to be led in to having an interest and knowledge about the conflict. And you'll never guess what some of those origin points were.
Now whether you think my words on American statues as a foreigner/tourist have any value is up to you, but here they are anyway.

And before they are mentioned, museums are a decent second best option sure. But exhibits lose the historical significance of being in their original locations and are still restricted to people actively visiting who happen to come across them or, once again, already know what they're looking for.
Besides, Lee (and many other Confederate statues) didn't even go to museums in the end. And no one can say for sure if they will be yet either. Some have spent well over a year in storage with no end or no acceptance of offers in sight.
 

JerryD

Private
Joined
Aug 23, 2021
I think the 'erasing history' remark isn't meant to be taken too literally. I feel that 'erasing history' is more the idea that as markers, monuments, names, images - you name it - are taken down or otherwise removed from easy to see places, the subjects of those features start to fade from people's general knowledge. Soon they become obscure and only clear themselves up to those who already know what they're looking for. For everyone else that history may as well be erased metaphorically as those points of reference are gone, and now maybe they will have no reason to look into the period or the person further.

This is especially meaningful to me as a foreigner. The civil war may be taught as an essential module in history classes in the US, but here in the UK it is not an exaggeration to say that not a single speck of the American civil war is taught in schools. Most people here may only know that Lincoln was president and that it was something to do with slavery as their background knowledge and that's it. Show them a Confederate flag and they would probably just describe it as something rednecks wave around (that's unfortunately the stereotype portrayed here too). "Robert E Lee who?!"
I had to be led in to having an interest and knowledge about the conflict. And you'll never guess what some of those origin points were.
Now whether you think my words on American statues as a foreigner/tourist have any value is up to you, but here they are anyway.

And before they are mentioned, museums are a decent second best option sure. But exhibits lose the historical significance of being in their original locations and are still restricted to people actively visiting who happen to come across them or, once again, already know what they're looking for.
Besides, Lee (and many other Confederate statues) didn't even go to museums in the end. And no one can say for sure if they will be yet either. Some have spent well over a year in storage with no end or no acceptance of offers in sight.
Well, I have to admit that is a thoughtful response. I might suggest, though, that the people who don't have an interest in the CW probably aren't paying a whole lot of attention to who the statue is of in the park down the road. But your point is well taken. Here in Washington DC we have tons of statutes to Civil War heroes, but the vast majority of people have no idea who these people are, and dont care. Its the people who actually care about the CW that care about the statues.
 

jcaesar

Private
Joined
Aug 28, 2020
Well, I have to admit that is a thoughtful response. I might suggest, though, that the people who don't have an interest in the CW probably aren't paying a whole lot of attention to who the statue is of in the park down the road. But your point is well taken. Here in Washington DC we have tons of statutes to Civil War heroes, but the vast majority of people have no idea who these people are, and dont care. Its the people who actually care about the CW that care about the statues.
Tourists that go on a tour of the capital building you have a tour explaining the history and importance of each person-statue in the building.
 
Top