Restricted Largest Confederate Monument In The South Is Coming Down

JerryD

Private
Joined
Aug 23, 2021
Richmond government deems any ruling unenforceable that they don't agree with, such as crowd (mob) control and destruction of property. How different and quickly they reacted to clean off graffiti when it was the Arthur Ashe monument that was vandalized.
The Supreme Court of Virginia made the determination it was unenforceable.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
No, just the opposite. No person should expect a municipality to express the views of dead residents forever.

I'm not sure why you use the word "whims?" Were these monuments installed at the whims of the past residents?
Whim-a sudden desire or change of mind, especially one that is unusual or unexplained.

Certainly seems the case as it's certainly sudden in historical sense, and rather unusual in historical sense. As Lee's devotion to Virginia or to the defense of Richmond, what the memorial remembered certainly hasn't changed in the last year.
 

Virginia Dave

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Waynesboro, Virginia
September 2, 2021--Richmond Times Dispatch

'Today it is clear — the largest Confederate monument in the South is coming down.' Court rulings clear way for removal of Lee Monument in Richmond

In two unanimous rulings Thursday the Virginia Supreme Court cleared the way for the removal of Richmond's iconic but divisive Lee Monument.
The justices rejected appeals from five nearby property owners and an heir of those who donated the land for the Lee statue to bar moving it as ordered by Gov. Ralph Northam last year during racial justice protests that swept the former capital of the Confederacy following the death of George Floyd.
A statement from Northam's office said preparations for the statue's removal have been underway for months and that the Department of General Services can now begin executing a plan that prioritizes public safety.

The process is complicated by several logistical and security concerns, including street closures and the equipment required to ensure the safe removal of the 12-ton statue, said the governor's office. Removal of the statue will be a multi-day process and no action on the statue is expected this week, said officials.

"Today’s ruling is a tremendous win for the people of Virginia. Our public memorials are symbols of who we are and what we value. When we honor leaders who fought to preserve a system that enslaved human beings, we are honoring a lost cause that has burdened Virginia for too many years."

He added, “Today it is clear—the largest Confederate monument in the South is coming down.”
William C. Gregory, a descendant of two of the people who donated the land to the state, filed suit in Richmond Circuit Court to block it, alleging that the 1887 and 1890 deeds giving the land to the state created a perpetual covenant prohibiting removal of the Lee statue, which he had a right to enforce as an heir to the original land donors.

When that suit failed, five area residents, two of them residents of the Monument Avenue Historic District, also sued, arguing that the 1887 and 1890 deeds require that the monument be held "perpetually sacred" by the state.

Richmond Circuit Court Judge W. Reilly Marchant ruled against them, holding that arguments to keep it in place were contrary to current public policy as established by the General Assembly last year. An injunction was put in place barring the monument’s removal pending the appeal to the Virginia Supreme Court.
In the unanimous opinion Thursday in the residents' case, the high court states that, "Those restrictive covenants are unenforceable as contrary to public policy and for being unreasonable because their effect is to compel government speech, by forcing the Commonwealth to express, in perpetuity, a message with which it now disagrees. For the reasons stated, we hold that the circuit court did not err in concluding that the purported restrictive covenants are unenforceable, that Governor Northam’s order to remove the Lee Monument did not violate the Constitution of Virginia, and that all of the Taylor Plaintiffs’ claims are without merit. Accordingly, we will affirm the judgment of the circuit court and immediately dissolve all injunctions imposed by the circuit court."


In the Gregory case the justices ruled, "Gregory has no property right, related to the Lee Monument, to enforce against the Commonwealth. As a result, the circuit court correctly found that Gregory failed to articulate a legally viable cause of action against Governor Northam and Director Damico, and it did not err in granting their demurrer and dismissing Gregory’s claim with prejudice."
Patrick McSweeney, lawyer for the property owners, said he had not yet had a chance to read the rulings for comment.
The opinion in the property owners' case was written by Justice S. Bernard Goodwyn. The Gregory case was authored by the court. "This is a pretty complete vindication of the governor's case," said Richard Schragger, who teaches at the University of Virginia School of Law.
Does anyone know if this has been taken down yet at Fort Monroe?

DSC_0056.JPG
 

DanSBHawk

Captain
Joined
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Location
Wisconsin
Whim-a sudden desire or change of mind, especially one that is unusual or unexplained.

Certainly seems the case as it's certainly sudden in historical sense, and rather unusual in historical sense. As Lee's devotion to Virginia or to the defense of Richmond, what the memorial remembered certainly hasn't changed in the last year.
I doubt that it seems like a whim to those who have always opposed the confederate monuments. They certainly haven't changed their minds, and I wouldn't consider their views "unexplained." The opposition to the monuments has been fully explained by the opponents.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
It certainly does meet the definition of a whim though. Whether you find it unusual or not is noted, but doesn't change that it does.

There certainly has seemed a rather sudden kneejerk reaction nationally to a criminal case that had nothing to do with the either the civil war or it's combatants, or any the others attacked. Polls already suggest the kneejerk reaction is subsiding as far as people supporting removals. So I see no reason to not refer to it as a whim, as a would any other kneejerk reaction.
 
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DanSBHawk

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Joined
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Location
Wisconsin
It certainly does meet the definition of a whim though. Whether you find it unusual or not is noted, but doesn't change that it does.

There certainly has seemed a rather sudden kneejerk reaction nationally to a criminal case that had nothing to do with the either the civil war or it's combatants. Polls already suggest the kneejerk reaction is subsiding as far as people supporting removals. So I see no reason to not refer to it as a whim, as a would any other kneejerk reaction.
I wouldn't consider it sudden or kneejerk. This has been building up for decades. Many people chose to ignore it, so it only seems kneejerk to them.
 
Joined
Sep 28, 2021
September 2, 2021--Richmond Times Dispatch

'Today it is clear — the largest Confederate monument in the South is coming down.' Court rulings clear way for removal of Lee Monument in Richmond

In two unanimous rulings Thursday the Virginia Supreme Court cleared the way for the removal of Richmond's iconic but divisive Lee Monument.
The justices rejected appeals from five nearby property owners and an heir of those who donated the land for the Lee statue to bar moving it as ordered by Gov. Ralph Northam last year during racial justice protests that swept the former capital of the Confederacy following the death of George Floyd.
A statement from Northam's office said preparations for the statue's removal have been underway for months and that the Department of General Services can now begin executing a plan that prioritizes public safety.

The process is complicated by several logistical and security concerns, including street closures and the equipment required to ensure the safe removal of the 12-ton statue, said the governor's office. Removal of the statue will be a multi-day process and no action on the statue is expected this week, said officials.

"Today’s ruling is a tremendous win for the people of Virginia. Our public memorials are symbols of who we are and what we value. When we honor leaders who fought to preserve a system that enslaved human beings, we are honoring a lost cause that has burdened Virginia for too many years."

He added, “Today it is clear—the largest Confederate monument in the South is coming down.”
William C. Gregory, a descendant of two of the people who donated the land to the state, filed suit in Richmond Circuit Court to block it, alleging that the 1887 and 1890 deeds giving the land to the state created a perpetual covenant prohibiting removal of the Lee statue, which he had a right to enforce as an heir to the original land donors.

When that suit failed, five area residents, two of them residents of the Monument Avenue Historic District, also sued, arguing that the 1887 and 1890 deeds require that the monument be held "perpetually sacred" by the state.

Richmond Circuit Court Judge W. Reilly Marchant ruled against them, holding that arguments to keep it in place were contrary to current public policy as established by the General Assembly last year. An injunction was put in place barring the monument’s removal pending the appeal to the Virginia Supreme Court.
In the unanimous opinion Thursday in the residents' case, the high court states that, "Those restrictive covenants are unenforceable as contrary to public policy and for being unreasonable because their effect is to compel government speech, by forcing the Commonwealth to express, in perpetuity, a message with which it now disagrees. For the reasons stated, we hold that the circuit court did not err in concluding that the purported restrictive covenants are unenforceable, that Governor Northam’s order to remove the Lee Monument did not violate the Constitution of Virginia, and that all of the Taylor Plaintiffs’ claims are without merit. Accordingly, we will affirm the judgment of the circuit court and immediately dissolve all injunctions imposed by the circuit court."


In the Gregory case the justices ruled, "Gregory has no property right, related to the Lee Monument, to enforce against the Commonwealth. As a result, the circuit court correctly found that Gregory failed to articulate a legally viable cause of action against Governor Northam and Director Damico, and it did not err in granting their demurrer and dismissing Gregory’s claim with prejudice."
Patrick McSweeney, lawyer for the property owners, said he had not yet had a chance to read the rulings for comment.
The opinion in the property owners' case was written by Justice S. Bernard Goodwyn. The Gregory case was authored by the court. "This is a pretty complete vindication of the governor's case," said Richard Schragger, who teaches at the University of Virginia School of Law.
I personally feel that this is just disgusting. I'm a Yankee through and through but taking down markers of past events agreeable or not is a act of ignoring where we come from. The people taking them down don't even realise most army bases are named after southern generals. As far as I'm concerned those are as American as any northern statue. Next thing you know the civil war will be taught in schools that it was about slavery not money...like it is. There is a lesson to be learned here. If someone tells you its raining make sure they are not just pissing on your head.
 
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Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
No one ignored non existent issues, and its still not affecting anywhere near the majority of the country, realistically its rather confined to a few isolated cities.

And of those few, I may think the others silly and misguided, but Richmond is the only one I personally think is flat out wrong.......as there's no ignoring the historical connection to the city. That would be the only ignoring going on.
 
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ChargingStag

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Sep 24, 2021
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Wales, United Kingdom
It certainly does meet the definition of a whim though. Whether you find it unusual or not is noted, but doesn't change that it does.

There certainly has seemed a rather sudden kneejerk reaction nationally to a criminal case that had nothing to do with the either the civil war or it's combatants, or any the others attacked. Polls already suggest the kneejerk reaction is subsiding as far as people supporting removals. So I see no reason to not refer to it as a whim, as a would any other kneejerk reaction.

Unfortunately, now that the monuments are down, I worry about what a subsiding 'buzz' around them might mean for their future.

As much as I would love to have fuel to use against the anti-monument crowd who were being all smug around their "we don't want to erase history, we just want to put them in museums" ideas, I do actually want to see these statues in their former glory again sooner rather than later. Wherever they may end up.
I'm worried that as less people care, there's a real risk they may just end up living in that waste water plant-... ehem, 'secure storage facility' - forever more. Or even worse destroyed.
They're already moving at a snail's pace for the Charlottesville statues, and I don't even know if the Richmond ones will follow the same transfer application and bidding process yet.

I'm sure that those in charge would still never use a fading interest to quietly pass the statues to organizations like SCV or UDC either. So frustrating.
 

Quaama

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Port Macquarie, Australia
Unfortunately, now that the monuments are down, I worry about what a subsiding 'buzz' around them might mean for their future.

As much as I would love to have fuel to use against the anti-monument crowd who were being all smug around their "we don't want to erase history, we just want to put them in museums" ideas, I do actually want to see these statues in their former glory again sooner rather than later. Wherever they may end up.
I'm worried that as less people care, there's a real risk they may just end up living in that waste water plant-... ehem, 'secure storage facility' - forever more. Or even worse destroyed.
They're already moving at a snail's pace for the Charlottesville statues, and I don't even know if the Richmond ones will follow the same transfer application and bidding process yet.

I'm sure that those in charge would still never use a fading interest to quietly pass the statues to organizations like SCV or UDC either. So frustrating.

I think that you have good reason to "worry" and be concerned "for their future".

It's been a very long time since the first of the monuments began to fall. I haven't seen much evidence that they have been "put in museums" except for a very few. Many of them were designed specifically to be outside in the public view and even if they get to a museum most can never be appreciated as intended, let alone "in their former glory".

Based on what has happened to date, "secure storage facility" is simply an euphemism for anywhere they can be locked away out of sight of the public. In Richmond that can mean the local sewerage plant where quite a few have been dumped in their damaged and/or dismantled state with no indication as to what shall be done with them other than to leave them there. The R E Lee Monument was sent somewhere else [I'm not sure where] when it is do doubt under lock and key. The Lee figure was spitefully cut in half so the sculpture is now in a damaged state. The pedestal was defaced long ago and no effort was ever made to clean it [I understand that the longer graffiti remains on an object the more difficult it is to remove without inflicting further damage]. Many other stone parts of the pedestal were also damaged during a half-hearted effort to locate a time capsule - once the damage was done the Governor's Office said "The search for this moldy Confederate box is over. We're moving on."

I'm very sorry to say that, in all likelihood, these monuments are gone forever and more will follow. In their place will be statues/plaques and smaller monuments of less historical importance and the true history of the conflict will continue to be whitewashed through biased and unsubstantiated articles Edited. that are introduced through school curriculums to 'educate' the next generation.
 
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DanSBHawk

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Location
Wisconsin
Unfortunately, now that the monuments are down, I worry about what a subsiding 'buzz' around them might mean for their future.

As much as I would love to have fuel to use against the anti-monument crowd who were being all smug around their "we don't want to erase history, we just want to put them in museums" ideas, I do actually want to see these statues in their former glory again sooner rather than later. Wherever they may end up.
I'm worried that as less people care, there's a real risk they may just end up living in that waste water plant-... ehem, 'secure storage facility' - forever more. Or even worse destroyed.
They're already moving at a snail's pace for the Charlottesville statues, and I don't even know if the Richmond ones will follow the same transfer application and bidding process yet.

I'm sure that those in charge would still never use a fading interest to quietly pass the statues to organizations like SCV or UDC either. So frustrating.
Or, maybe it's a good thing if the "buzz" dies down.

There are people on both sides of the issue that have gotten a little too worked up. Of all these monuments that have been removed by municipalities, I haven't heard of any being destroyed. They will almost certainly be displayed somewhere, at some point. Maybe not on a pedestal, and maybe not in a public venue that's in everyone's face, but they'll be displayed at some point.

The sky isn't falling. History isn't being erased.
 
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mo
Or, maybe it's a good thing if the "buzz" dies down.

There are people on both sides of the issue that have gotten a little too worked up. Of all these monuments that have been removed by municipalities, I haven't heard of any being destroyed. They will almost certainly be displayed somewhere, at some point. Maybe not on a pedestal, and maybe not in a public venue that's in everyone's face, but they'll be displayed at some point.

The sky isn't falling. History isn't being erased.
Would think if history isn't being erased and one wanted the buzz to die down, transferring the monuments to other public or private places to be re-erected would be a priority.

Think it would be folly to pretend they don't have art, historical, and heritige value, why the NPS had designated them national historical landmarks. So it makes no sense to not be utilizing them.
 
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