Restricted Largest Confederate Monument In The South Is Coming Down

BuckeyeWarrior

Sergeant
Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Location
Ohio
“I am willing, for one, to forget the past when the rebels cease to remind me of it, and not before. Comrades, the time may come when an ungrateful public may forget all those bloody years of war, when the traitor will be applauded and his crimes forgotten…when no distinction will be made between the traitor and the patriot…when towering monuments rear aloft from the Capitol Square erected by Southern pride to honor the memory of her false-hearted sons…this may come with time, but by the eternal God, not if we can prevent it!" Major General Hugh Judson Kilpatrick May 31, 1871

https://macivilwarmonuments.com/2019/05/26/westfield/
 

Stone in the wall

2nd Lieutenant
Asst. Regtl. Quartermaster Antietam 2021
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Location
Blue Ridge Mountains, Jefferson County WV
Absolutely. But some areas and states got rid of it on their own while others only gave it up when forced.
Like Washington D.C.? "freed 3,100 individuals, reimbursed those who had legally owned them and offered newly freed women and men money to emigrate" dc.gov
Pretty sweet deal, reimbursed for your property, then government offers money to emigrate. In other words: leave, hit the road, or just get out of town.
 

ForeverFree

Major
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Location
District of Columbia
VA had the first Black Governor of any US state, nearly 20 years before 44. My point is, AA's had a voice in Virginia. I have zero memories of them not. The reason we all got along for most of my lifetime, was respect for others, & respect for opposing viewpoints. That's the difference. These monuments weren't untouchable because of lack of a voice, they were left in place out of respect for others.
One theme throughout African American history is that whites often believe that they know what AA's think or feel.

But even in 2021, the mask is yet being worn. In my lifetime, there will never be a time when the mask is gone.

I do not pretend to speak for African Americans, and anyone who says they do should be dismissed out of hand. But I would make the point that, if you have an interest in knowing how AA's feel on this subject, this forum is not the place where you will find out.

- Alan
 

ForeverFree

Major
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Location
District of Columbia
Like Washington D.C.? "freed 3,100 individuals, reimbursed those who had legally owned them and offered newly freed women and men money to emigrate" dc.gov
Pretty sweet deal, reimbursed for your property, then government offers money to emigrate. In other words: leave, hit the road, or just get out of town.
The abolition of slavery in DC is actually a local holiday in the District, it's DC's version of Juneteenth.

The end of slavery was not a morality play, it was sausage making at its worst. But the jubilee was salvation. We cannot imagine how that felt.

- Alan
 
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Stone in the wall

2nd Lieutenant
Asst. Regtl. Quartermaster Antietam 2021
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Location
Blue Ridge Mountains, Jefferson County WV
I disagree. Northern racism has been discussed on this site many times over the years. A simple use of CWT's search engine for the term "Northern racism" will bring up almost 1,000 results.
....and "Southern racism" will bring up 40% more. Alas neither numbers prove a thing. CWT member's have way more knowledge about these subjects, and can learn if they take the time to look and read. CWT was my go to for information, way before I ever became a member. Most all people and governments have skeletons in their closets. I was posting about the average person who, same as all of us have seen the pictures of "white only" or "colored only" signs in the south. Then start waving the fingers, and have no idea, that most all the railroad lines in New England had separate cars for colored travelers. Frederick Douglas wrote all about it in My Bondage My Freedom.
 

19thGeorgia

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
“I am willing, for one, to forget the past when the rebels cease to remind me of it, and not before. Comrades, the time may come when an ungrateful public may forget all those bloody years of war, when the traitor will be applauded and his crimes forgotten…when no distinction will be made between the traitor and the patriot…when towering monuments rear aloft from the Capitol Square erected by Southern pride to honor the memory of her false-hearted sons…this may come with time, but by the eternal God, not if we can prevent it!" Major General Hugh Judson Kilpatrick May 31, 1871

https://macivilwarmonuments.com/2019/05/26/westfield/
Kilpatrick- "a frothy braggart without brains"
 
....and "Southern racism" will bring up 40% more. Alas neither numbers prove a thing. CWT member's have way more knowledge about these subjects, and can learn if they take the time to look and read. CWT was my go to for information, way before I ever became a member. Most all people and governments have skeletons in their closets. I was posting about the average person who, same as all of us have seen the pictures of "white only" or "colored only" signs in the south. Then start waving the fingers, and have no idea, that most all the railroad lines in New England had separate cars for colored travelers. Frederick Douglas wrote all about it in My Bondage My Freedom.
Sorry, but I took you post as being directed towards posters here on CWT.
 

Stone in the wall

2nd Lieutenant
Asst. Regtl. Quartermaster Antietam 2021
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Location
Blue Ridge Mountains, Jefferson County WV
The abolition of slavery in DC is actually a local holiday in the District, it's DC's version of Juneteenth.

- Alan
A recent addition. Due to lack of education from their ancestors and schools.
"Young people today are less aware of it. Even when I talk about Maryland Emancipation Day (November1) many of them have never in Maryland heard of it-and they're born and raised there." Lopez Matthews Jr
People should know their past and the history of it. It was my father and grandmother who taught me mine.
 

Florida Rebel

Corporal
Joined
May 31, 2019
"He who has the most votes, has the most power!" There is no doubt the demographics and population of the south has shifted and because of that, political power is swinging to the other side. Hence a guy like Ralph Northam of VA, certainly someone I have NO use or respect for, is able to be elected Governor of the once great state of Virginia. Just look at all the things that have happened in the state since he took office! The city of Richmond is an excellent example. Because Northam and his people now have the votes and the power, anything to do with the old Confederacy in Richmond is now gone. Is this the way it's going to be all thru the South? Are we going to allow a segment of our current population to say and write whatever they want, even if a group of us know it's all lies? What's next?
 

ForeverFree

Major
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Location
District of Columbia
A recent addition. Due to lack of education from their ancestors and schools.
"Young people today are less aware of it. Even when I talk about Maryland Emancipation Day (November1) many of them have never in Maryland heard of it-and they're born and raised there." Lopez Matthews Jr
People should know their past and the history of it. It was my father and grandmother who taught me mine.
In fact, Emancipation Day in DC was established in 2005 in part because the history of the event was not as well known/remembered/celebrated as it should have been. Kudos to the people in DC who stepped up and made it happen.

Emancipation Day in MD has not been celebrated, and I find this unfortunate. MD Gov Larry Hogan did observe Juneteenth National Independence Day in 2021, and state government agencies and offices were closed on Friday, June 18, 2021. I've actually tried to organize some things myself, never had any success. But I live in DC, not MD. Baltimore actually had 4 Confederate monuments until they were removed in 2017, several days after the Charlottesville incident.

The history of Emancipation Day celebrations in black communities has been documented in books such as O Freedom! Afro-American Emancipation Celebrations by William H. Wiggins, and Festivals of Freedom: Memory and Meaning in African American Emancipation Celebrations, 1808-1915 by Mitch Kachun. Such celebrations were widespread after the Civil War. As I recall, one scholar said that African Americans engaged in these celebrations in part because they were not free /or/ economically able to create monuments for installation in the public square or private places. These local celebrations have waned since WWI/WWII for various reasons.

This is a somewhat famous photo of an Emancipation Day celebration in Richmond, VA, 4/3/1905. Emancipation came to African Americans living in Richmond on April 3, 1865 when Union troops came to the city.
4a12513v.jpg


dc-emancipation-celebration-1866-gif.gif


Celebration of the abolition of slavery in the District of Columbia by the colored people, in Washington, April 19, 1866 / Harper’s Weekly, v. 10, no. 489 (1866 May 12), p. 300 / sketched by F. Dielman.

sc1477-1-6303_small-jpg.jpg


This is from a celebration of Maryland Emancipation Day, 1914.

- Alan
 
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Philip Leigh

formerly Harvey Johnson
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
September 15, 2021

Gray Lives Matter by Ann Coulter:

My ancestors were Presbyterian abolitionists who fought on the Union side, but I get really ticked off when imbeciles take a sledgehammer to my country’s history.

Last week, with self-satisfied glee, savages tore down the 14-foot statue of Robert E. Lee designed by the French sculptor Antonin Mercie and installed in 1890 on land deeded to the state — in return for a promise that the Commonwealth of Virginia “will hold said Statue and pedestal and Circle of ground perpetually sacred to the Monumental purpose to which they have been devoted and that she will faithfully guard it and affectionately protect it.”

Continued in the link below:

https://anncoulter.com/2021/09/15/gray-lives-matter/
 

Andersonh1

Brigadier General
Moderator
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Location
South Carolina
Gray Lives Matter by Ann Coulter:

My ancestors were Presbyterian abolitionists who fought on the Union side, but I get really ticked off when imbeciles take a sledgehammer to my country’s history.

Last week, with self-satisfied glee, savages tore down the 14-foot statue of Robert E. Lee designed by the French sculptor Antonin Mercie and installed in 1890 on land deeded to the state — in return for a promise that the Commonwealth of Virginia “will hold said Statue and pedestal and Circle of ground perpetually sacred to the Monumental purpose to which they have been devoted and that she will faithfully guard it and affectionately protect it.”

Continued in the link below:

https://anncoulter.com/2021/09/15/gray-lives-matter/

Ann tells it like it is.
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
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Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).

Quaama

Sergeant
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Location
Port Macquarie, Australia
Since the monument and land it sits on was a bequest to the state why wasn't it simply returned to the heirs of those who gave it.
IIRC correctly, the plaintiffs did not request return of the land, as that would have undercut their argument that there was an enforceable covenant in the first instance (which is what they really wanted). Instead, they sought specific performance of the language about holding the monument perpetually sacred. The Virginia Supreme Court ruled that that language was not enforceable, because it sought to limit/constrain government expression against public policy: "A restrictive covenant against the government is unreasonable if it compels the government to contract away, abridge, or weaken any sovereign right because such a restrictive covenant would interfere with the interest of the public."

So, the underlying grant/deed remained in force, but the covenant was unenforceable.

Yes, it should have been "returned to the heirs of those who gave it."

It needs to be remembered that there were two separate cases considered by the Virginia Supreme Court regarding the R E Lee Monument (See [my] Post #5 on page 1 of this thread).
The lesser known case, Gregory v Northam et al, was a claim by William C Gregory. Essentially, his claim was:
"Gregory asserts that, as an heir of Bettie and Roger Gregory, he has a legal right, based upon the language in this provision of the 1890 Deed, to compel the Commonwealth to keep the Lee Monument where it currently sits. He also claims that removal of the Lee Monument from its current location would result in irreparable harm to him. As evidence of his claim of irreparable harm, he describes his familial pride in the Lee Monument, which sits on property previously owned by his ancestors."

The Virginia Supreme Court:
"concluded that the parties to the 1887 Deed and the 1890 Deed intended to create an easement appurtenant, not an easement in gross" and "dismissed Gregory's claims, with prejudice" [i. e. Gregory is prevented from filing a future lawsuit on the same grounds].

The essential meaning of easement appurtenant is that is any benefit that can be gained from the land passed to the new owners once the land had been gifted. Consequently, Virginia has no duty to:
"hold said Statue and pedestal and Circle of ground perpetually sacred to the Monumental purpose to which they have been devoted and that she will faithfully guard it and affectionately protect it"; because
now that Virginia owns the land they may generally do as they please with it.

I think William C Gregory was 'out-lawyered' on this one and he may also have been facing an hostile Court on this issue. It defies commonsense that the original owners would have bothered to introduce terms into the 1890 Deed that extracted a guarantee requiring the new owner,Viriginia, to hold the "ground perpetually sacred" and to "faithfully guard it and affectionately protect it" unless they intended for that very thing to occur.
 

GwilymT

Sergeant Major
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Location
Pittsburgh
“I am willing, for one, to forget the past when the rebels cease to remind me of it, and not before. Comrades, the time may come when an ungrateful public may forget all those bloody years of war, when the traitor will be applauded and his crimes forgotten…when no distinction will be made between the traitor and the patriot…when towering monuments rear aloft from the Capitol Square erected by Southern pride to honor the memory of her false-hearted sons…this may come with time, but by the eternal God, not if we can prevent it!" Major General Hugh Judson Kilpatrick May 31, 1871

https://macivilwarmonuments.com/2019/05/26/westfield/
Read it again
 
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