kibitzers:Formal Debate: Vicksburg vs. Gettysburg which affected outcome of war more.

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W. Richardson

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Personally I feel that neither Vicksburg or Gettysburg alone affected the outcome of the war more than the other. The two in conjunction with the other was what affected the outcome of the war. The war in the East and the West both had to be won.


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Respectfully,
William
 

CW3O

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Well done to both of you!
I add a comment for consideration concerning the point that the victory at Vicksburg exposed the underbelly of the Confederacy for exploitation.

While it is certainly true that the loss of the forces at Vicksburg opened the underbelly is it not equally true that the defeat at Gettysburg and the need for Lee to guard against a Union counteroffensive against his battered Army made any hope of sizable reinforcements to the western theater unlikely.

I think it was Patton that said something about holding the enemy by the nose and kicking him in the a##, isn't this somewhat analogous to Meade holding Lee by the nose while Grant kicked the Confederacy in the a##.
 
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1SGDan

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Very impressive opening round, well done gentlemen. Civil debate conducted at a high level of knowledge and understanding. Good stuff.
I don't envy Scotsman's position of the Gettysburg argument but a comprehensive series of points well made.
Excellent rebuttal by brass.
 

W. Richardson

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I think both men are doing an outstanding job and wish to again extend my thank you and congratulations to both.

However, I do have to disagree with BN on this matter............

"And another day wasn't long in coming as far as Lee was concerned. Just seven weeks after his defeat at Gettysburg, Lee, at a conference of the Confederate high command in Richmond, proposed another invasion of the North and ordered Longstreet to prepare for it."

The source (https://books.google.com/books?id=MuSJcY6iH8gC&pg=PA151#v=onepage&q&f=false) given states................."In fact, as late as August 31, from Richmond he ordered Longstreet to prepare the army offensive operations against Meade. In the conference he suggested he take the offensive in Virginia. Lee and Davis also evidently toyed with the idea of opening third front in Southwest Virginia, or by sending a combined Jones-Longstreet expedition Southward into the upper East Tennessee Valley".



But I did not locate anything that spoke of another invasion of the North.............

I may have missed it...........

Though I will add I would not doubt Lee may have had such a notion somewhere in the back of his mind at some point.

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Respectfully,
William
 
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alan polk

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I really love this. Both you guys are doing incredible! Brass, your first supplemental post was simply a work of wonderful scholarship within a debating context! I can't wait for Scotsman. Great job guys. This has been so enjoyable and educating!!!!
 

W. Richardson

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I really love this. Both you guys are doing incredible! Brass, your first supplemental post was simply a work of wonderful scholarship within a debating context! I can't wait for Scotsman. Great job guys. This has been so enjoyable and educating!!!!

Alan, you are so right, both BN and Scotsman are doing an incredible job !! We all are learning so much and the debating concept is great for the forum as it is presented in a way that is not distracting by so many joining in with post in the debating thread. My hat is off to both Scotsman and Brass !


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Respectfully,
William
 

alan polk

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Scotsman, well done!!! Though I'm more familiar with Vicksburg, you are giving incredible food for thought. Once again, you bring to the debate issues which make me reconsider my previous biasness. Thanks!!!!
 
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Pat Answer

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Bravo! And not even halfway done. I'll join the chorus of praise for two impressive exemplars of skilful and courteous debate! :thumbsup: !!

I thought we'd eventually end up with the crux of this matter: if you have to choose between western and eastern theater, which mattered more for the war's outcome? And, as we have seen, there are many ways to consider that question. I'm still of the opinion that Vicksburg was the single greatest military "turning point" (and I've hitherto called it a 'broken arm' for the CSA compared to the 'black eye' of Gettysburg). But I'm reminded of the political importance of being seen to win in the east. As Lincoln complained to a European observer in Aug 1862: "You are quite right, as to the importance to us, for its bearing upon Europe, that we should achieve military successes; and the same is true for us at home as well as abroad. Yet it seems unreasonable that a series of successes, extending through half-a-year and clearing more than a hundred thousand square miles of country [Fort Donelson, Nashville, New Orleans, Corinth, &c], should help us so little, while a single half-defeat [The Seven Days] should hurt us so much." In basically confirming the eastern stalemate that allowed the Union to maximize its advantages elsewhere, the idea is slowly growing on me that Gettysburg may perhaps be more like an unnoticed bullet in a leg artery than a black eye...
(with apologies: '...so sorry, Uncle Albert'...) :running:

Having said this, the importance of those western victories for Union morale should not be overlooked... :biggrin:

Keep it up, you guys. I hope that thread becomes a CWT archive classic.
 
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jackt62

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I just stumbled onto this amazing debate! Both participants gave considered and persuasive arguments as to the validity of their particular positions. I always came down on the side of Vicksburg's greater importance, but after following the thread, there is a real case to be made for Gettysburg. Maybe the best conclusion is that each Northern victory, was in its own way, significant to the ultimate defeat of the CSA.

Given that I'm new to CWT, can anyone tell me how often debates are held, and how does one sign on as a participant?
 

brass napoleon

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Given that I'm new to CWT, can anyone tell me how often debates are held, and how does one sign on as a participant?
The debates are new to CWT also, Jack. This is the first one. There's no formal process to sign on. I would suggest that if you have a topic you want to debate, come up with a debatable proposition, start a thread, and see if anybody else wants to participate. You'll probably have to spend some time going back and forth ironing out the details before you'll actually be ready to start the debate, which will be in its own thread in the "Moderated" forum. You can see how this current debate got established on this thread:

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/a-challenge-debate-thread-part-2.114078/
 
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jackt62

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The debates are new to CWT also, Jack. This is the first one. There's no formal process to sign on. I would suggest that if you have a topic you want to debate, come up with a debatable proposition, start a thread, and see if anybody else wants to participate. You'll probably have to spend some time going back and forth ironing out the details before you'll actually be ready to start the debate, which will be in its own thread in the "Moderated" forum. You can see how this current debate got established on this thread:

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/a-challenge-debate-thread-part-2.114078/
Thanks for that information, I do have a variety of topics that I'll seriously consider.
 

W. Richardson

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Brass Napoleon and Scotsman, I want to thank you both for a superb debate !!! It was totally enjoyable in the way you both presented your arguments and it was an informative and knowledgeable debate by the two of you. I learned a great deal and the format worked wonderful, with it limited to just the two of you it kept the distractions to a nil..........Again thank you both !!! I also want to once again thank Jgoodguy for his hard work at coming up with a very workable format for the debate.

I started of with the total belief that Gettysburg being the battle that affected the war the most, and I still feel that way but not as total as I did.

Brass gave an outstanding argument for Vicksburg, Scotsman did an equally outstanding job for Gettysburg, and I, like Ned, have a great deal more to ponder on the Vicksburg/Gettysburg question.............

Hats off to both you guys !!!!!


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Respectfully,
William
 
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brass napoleon

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Brass Napoleon and Scotsman, I want to thank you both for a superb debate !!! It was totally enjoyable in the way you both presented your arguments and it was an informative and knowledgeable debate by the two of you. I learned a great deal and the format worked wonderful, with it limited to just the two of you it kept the distractions to a nil..........Again thank you both !!! I also want to once again thank Jgoodguy for his hard work at coming up with a very workable format for the debate.

I started of with the total belief that Gettysburg being the battle that affected the war the most, and I still feel that way but not as total as I did.

Brass gave an outstanding argument for Vicksburg, Scotsman did an equally outstanding job for Gettysburg, and I, like Ned, have a great deal more to ponder on the Vicksburg/Gettysburg question.............

Hats off to both you guys !!!!!


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Respectfully,
William
Well thank you very much, William, but you're jumping the gun! The debate isn't over yet. @Scotsman is still entitled to a rebuttal of my last post, and up to 3 more supplemental posts of his own if he wants them, to which I'll be entitled a rebuttal. And then there are questions and closing statements. So please stay tuned, and be thinking of questions you might want to ask us!
 
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