Restricted Isn't the South Great. It would be a shame to erase it.

jgoodguy

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The confederacy is a part of Southern history, but that's all, just a part. The confederacy was a political entity, not the be all and end all of all things Southern.

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Then there is the problem of just how accurate is the memory of the Confederacy. How many say what their ancestors though without any idea of what they thought.
 

Borderland

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The confederacy is a part of Southern history, but that's all, just a part. The confederacy was a political entity, not the be all and end all of all things Southern.

I think this is entirely accurate, and in fact, I don't believe it can be argued from any other viewpoint. It's a statement of fact.

The argument though to "honor the Confederacy" apparently does not require logic. It requires something akin to loyalty. The loyalty is usually to one or two things. It's a loyalty to support your ancestors right or wrong, or a loyalty to support the values of the historical Confederacy.

I have also seen an honest tribute to fighting men from the South, but that's not really honoring the Confederacy as much as it is honoring the military. I respect that, but there's no good reason I can see to link that to the historical Confederacy which is political by nature.

I certainly respect anyone's right to be fanatically loyal. My advice, however, would be to not try an make your arguments make any sense. Because they won't. :thumbsup:
 

Old_Glory

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I would have to think you are correct. However I've made the same assumption and have been told, it's not so. This would make an interesting thread on its own. Is All Southern history confederate history 1861-1865. You should launch it. I would be interested to learn from other Sotherners their thoughts.

What did you think I meant when I said it? Did you think I meant all Southern history is the Confederacy during the Civil War (it appears some did)? One of my Great-Great-Great Grandfathers lived in NC during that time and he did not fight for the Confederacy or the Union. The farm he lived on was looted by Sherman's men during the War. It was a devastating event in his life. That event did not involve the Confederacy, but it is every bit real to me.

The Confederacy's history is Southern history, but not all of it during the War. The current push to eliminate this part of history by many is increasingly disturbing and grows more vicious by the day. Many want to erase it from not only American history, but history itself of any kind. If they do, they will find that their generals and even president from this era will soon find the chopping block themselves.
 

Borderland

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The Confederacy's history is Southern history, but not all of it during the War. The current push to eliminate this part of history by many is increasingly disturbing and grows more vicious by the day. Many want to erase it from not only American history, but history itself of any kind. If they do, they will find that their generals and even president from this era will soon find the chopping block themselves.

I actually agree with you in a sense.

However, I think much of this is historical confusion by both parties - pro and con.

I think many of these "commemorative" symbols were raised in celebration of the political Confederacy (mostly during the peak of southern Jim Crow thinking in the early-mid 20th century). Many of these objects were in federal buildings. Yet, for most people this context remains unclear to both those wanting to keep them and to those wanting to do away with them.

I think the decision to take them away has to be more discriminating and based on context. It should not be a knee-jerk reaction.
 

jgoodguy

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I actually agree with you in a sense.

However, I think much of this is historical confusion by both parties - pro and con.

I think many of these "commemorative" symbols were raised in celebration of the political Confederacy (mostly during the peak of southern Jim Crow thinking in the early-mid 20th century). Many of these objects were in federal buildings. Yet, for most people this context remains unclear to both those wanting to keep them and to those wanting to do away with them.

I think the decision to take them away has to be more discriminating and based on context. It should not be a knee-jerk reaction.

I suggest that monuments be removed in the same spirit as they were raised.
 

jgoodguy

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With enthusiasm? :smoke:


Historically monuments were raised as an expression of political power and likewise lowered. Historically monuments were symbolically smashed by the victors, but today we put them in museums or tourist attractions.
 

JerseyBart

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What did you think I meant when I said it? Did you think I meant all Southern history is the Confederacy during the Civil War (it appears some did)? One of my Great-Great-Great Grandfathers lived in NC during that time and he did not fight for the Confederacy or the Union. The farm he lived on was looted by Sherman's men during the War. It was a devastating event in his life. That event did not involve the Confederacy, but it is every bit real to me.

The Confederacy's history is Southern history, but not all of it during the War. The current push to eliminate this part of history by many is increasingly disturbing and grows more vicious by the day. Many want to erase it from not only American history, but history itself of any kind. If they do, they will find that their generals and even president from this era will soon find the chopping block themselves.

That event, as awful as it was for your G3 Granfather, did involve the confederacy. Had there been no attempted confederacy seceding and starting a war, there would have been no event.
 

Old_Glory

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That event, as awful as it was for your G3 Granfather, did involve the confederacy. Had there been no attempted confederacy seceding and starting a war, there would have been no event.

It did involve the Confederacy in a way, but it isn't Confederate history and had nothing to do with the symbolism of the CBF. He was just an innocent bystander in the madness of the time period. Had Sherman not been a monster, or someone more respectable like McClellan, there would have been no event as well. There are endless scenarios and what if's.

My point is that not all of US history as a whole or the symbols of it, such as Old Glory, are paved with roses. Regretfully, my own family story from the Civil War is evidence of the abuse that has occurred by the hands of the US government throughout history. The more and more people continue to sign up for the "Confederate flag is racist" bandwagon, the more it jeopardizes symbols that mean far more to me than the Confederate Battle Flag. People can drag the CBF down and blame it for things that are far beyond its scope or intention, but all they are doing in the process is making it easier to dismantle and tear down Old Glory and the US along with it. It astonishes me to see how few people actually realize this and what the real force behind this movement is. The real push is to dismantle American history, not just Confederate history. The CBF is just the initial low hanging fruit.

This event below happened in Boston:

Boston Statue Vandalized

Does the phrase on that statue sound familiar? Isn't that the same phrase painted on Confederate monuments of remembrance? Yet, who is this a statue of?
 

JPK Huson 1863

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As a preservationist, I'm curious about the sentiments expressed here. If, say, Our English cousins one day decided they no longer liked Stonehenge, should they by simple vote decide to destroy it? It very much reminds me of the World Heritage site of the Buddahs in Afghanistan that were blown up. Is that what you are suggesting is appropriate? I mean it's their country, after all. Who are we to suggest they cannot change anything they like?

Sorry just saw this from way back on page 5 and was incredulous. Stonehenge, really? A prehistoric relic- conjectured to have been built with slave labor around 3,000 BC- conjectured mind you, to be compared with any reference at all to a modern times regime which enslaved their fellow man using bad science to 'prove' how scientifically they were done a favor being enslaved? Poor things could never make it on their own.

It's just a very poor argument to pull into this. One of Europe's ancient history treasures rife with mystery cannot compare in the slightest as far as historical value to any, one item memorializing the Confederacy.
 

jgoodguy

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Sorry just saw this from way back on page 5 and was incredulous. Stonehenge, really? A prehistoric relic- conjectured to have been built with slave labor around 3,000 BC- conjectured mind you, to be compared with any reference at all to a modern times regime which enslaved their fellow man using bad science to 'prove' how scientifically they were done a favor being enslaved? Poor things could never make it on their own.

It's just a very poor argument to pull into this. One of Europe's ancient history treasures rife with mystery cannot compare in the slightest as far as historical value to any, one item memorializing the Confederacy.

Perhaps we can gather all of the Lost Cause Memorials into a mysterious circle.
 

Borderland

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The more and more people continue to sign up for the "Confederate flag is racist" bandwagon, the more it jeopardizes symbols that mean far more to me than the Confederate Battle Flag. People can drag the CBF down and blame it for things that are far beyond its scope or intention

The people who really determined the flag was a racist symbol were 20th Century white southerners (my ancestors as well) dedicated to hate groups. Let's not pretend otherwise. That's how the flag was corrupted. People forget that the KKK had around 4-5 million men in its enrollment in the 1920s. Even presidents like Woodrow Wilson were sympathetic to the cause.

That's how the flag became what is today.

I think there is a large body of people who choose to look the other way when it comes to the flag's use in early 20th Century bigotry. That's where history gets altered in my opinion. Blaming it on others is deflection.
 

CMWinkler

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Sorry just saw this from way back on page 5 and was incredulous. Stonehenge, really? A prehistoric relic- conjectured to have been built with slave labor around 3,000 BC- conjectured mind you, to be compared with any reference at all to a modern times regime which enslaved their fellow man using bad science to 'prove' how scientifically they were done a favor being enslaved? Poor things could never make it on their own.

It's just a very poor argument to pull into this. One of Europe's ancient history treasures rife with mystery cannot compare in the slightest as far as historical value to any, one item memorializing the Confederacy.

Thank you for your views. I disagree.
 
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