Restricted Is there a possibility that all Confederate Statues and Monuments will be removed from Gettysburg

DanSBHawk

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I agree with this stand alone sentence. However, it applies to the removal folks as well.

I'll certainly continue to side with the groups that are reacting to this stuff peacefully, as the Flaggers have. As I have alluded to already, imagine if they responded in kind..? Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
I agree, but you have to admit, Viper, that there were other events that had contributed to getting people crazy worked-up. I will agree there should have been more charges and convictions for the damage to property, but the whole thing was not solely about monuments.
 

Viper21

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I agree, but you have to admit, Viper, that there were other events that had contributed to getting people crazy worked-up. I will agree there should have been more charges and convictions for the damage to property, but the whole thing was not solely about monuments.
For me anyways, it boils down to something very simple. Right is right, wrong is wrong, period. REGARDLESS of ones motivations, in a civilized society, we have a right way to go about things, & a wrong one.

Violently imposing your will, & other lawless behavior, whether it's personally, or in groups, is only justifiable in self defense. At least in my opinion. If the US Congress decides to remove monuments from Gettysburg, I will not be in favor of violently attacking any person, object, or thing. Nor will I be in favor of any desecration, or vandalism, period.

Our rule of law either means something, or it doesn't. We're going to remain a civilized society, or we're not. My advice to everyone, choose wisely. I certainly hope, & pray, it's the former.
 

DanSBHawk

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In fact, when that confederate flag showed up at a recent protest, my thought was that I could see that flag being banned as hate speech in the not-too-distant future. Which would mean you might not even be able to display it on private land if it's publicly viewable. People should be careful about escalating the debate.

There were many, many more American Flags visible that day, but whatever.

So now having symbols on private land is a problem to because you might see them, the rules keep changing. People reacting to symbols they care about being taken away is not "escalating the debate". Are you implying that we must just accept whatever the current political class decides to impose on us, because you think we are wrong or evil?

"cancel culture" is not a meaningless buzz word, it is actually happening whether you want to believe it or not and real people have had their livelihoods ruined over this meaningless buzz word.

@DanSBHawk, Still none of this is applicable to the issue being discussed on this thread which is monuments at a battlefield. These are not memorials in front of a courthouse or evil statues that might hurt someones feelings at the Saturday farmers market downtown, these are markers at a battlefield.

I am curious though, if next year, popular culture decides union monuments are problematic for whatever reason and decides to remove them, will this be ok with you? This is not hyperbole as I understand these types of things have started to be discussed. I am sincerly asking your thoughts on this.
No, I don't think having monuments on private land is necessarily a problem. I was speculating as to what a city governments hesitation would be in a group obtaining the monument.

Regarding battlefield monuments, I had posted something earlier and then changed my mind about posting it, because I thought it was opening a whole new can of worms. I wouldn't have a problem if they were to relocate every monument on a battlefield to a section alongside it, and restore the battlefield as close as possible to it's state when the battle took place. That would include removing built-up paved roadbeds on the battlefield. I know that would be outrageously expensive which is why I removed the post. I'd rather the battlefields were in a pristine historically-correct condition, but as I said, it's just another can of worms that would bring on more complaints.
 

19thGeorgia

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There are Confederates still buried at Gettysburg. Hundreds. Maybe over a thousand. In mass and unmarked graves.
And some mistakenly buried with the Union dead. It could be said the entire battlefield constitutes a cemetery.

Disturbing or removing memorials to the dead (especially when there are some that still remain) would be desecration.
Descendants should have a right to sue.
 
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Sadly you might be on to something; “displayed on private property only if no one can see it”.
A group had a large CS battleflag on private property beside I95 here in Virginia. Opponents fought several years to have it removed with no luck in court.
The group took the matter to the Virginia General Assembly.
In 2020 the Virginia Highway Departed took possession of the land as eminent domain for “interchange improvements “. When it was removed the local “newspaper “ reported the removal was done with dignity and respect.
Who could have ever guessed??

In our family room, we have a Mort Kunsler print “Lee at Fredericksburg “ which has a battleflag in the background carried by a horseman riding behind Lee and Longstreet.
Three years ago we were getting estimates for some home improvement. I invited one contractor inside to discuss a proposed contract . When he saw the print he pointed at it and said “that flag is the kind of hate we need to get out of America ‘.
I politely bit my toung and let him do his sales pitch then told him we would call him if we decided to use his company. His reply was “it doesn’t matter to me if we get it or not”.
Needless to say our $43,000 home improvement went to one of the other bidders.
I called the company whose salesman wanted to advise me on my test in prints to tell them we decided on another company to do the work. I also told them the salesman’s name and how I felt he insulted me in my own home but stipulated I was only bringing it up because it may have been the deciding factor and they might want to consider talking to him about what he says to future customers . The lady on the phone said “oh he’s the owners brother in law. “
So nothing will be said to his employer. Good for you going with a another contractor and even better for telling them why!!
 
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No, I don't think having monuments on private land is necessarily a problem. I was speculating as to what a city governments hesitation would be in a group obtaining the monument.

Regarding battlefield monuments, I had posted something earlier and then changed my mind about posting it, because I thought it was opening a whole new can of worms. I wouldn't have a problem if they were to relocate every monument on a battlefield to a section alongside it, and restore the battlefield as close as possible to it's state when the battle took place. That would include removing built-up paved roadbeds on the battlefield. I know that would be outrageously expensive which is why I removed the post. I'd rather the battlefields were in a pristine historically-correct condition, but as I said, it's just another can of worms that would bring on more complaints.
Or we can leave it the way it is...
 

atlantis

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Nov 12, 2016
There is a strong possibility all confederate statues and monuments will be removed from Gettysburg. Correct me if I am wrong but current federal law allows removal and given the times we live in, nothing would surprise me.
 
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mo
I didn't say "hate our history." I said a version of our history. The version that is incomplete, exaggerated, and glorifies one specific race.
I really don't understand your "glorifies one specific race" in regards to either monuments or the presentation of history.

We have always been a predominately white country, for over the first 100 years, minorities other then blacks were rather limited, and their role was largely confined to laborers through slavery......... consequently it's not surprising most the major figures and contributers actually were white...

Shouldn't the presentation of historical figures actually be based on merit and accomplishments regardless of race? If so the majority will be white. I know of no monument, whether to Columbus, Washington, Lincoln, Grant or Lee where the primary reason of the monument isn't accomplishments, but that merely they were white.......so it's hardly glorifying race.
 
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John Winn

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There is a strong possibility all confederate statues and monuments will be removed from Gettysburg. Correct me if I am wrong but current federal law allows removal and given the times we live in, nothing would surprise me.
Well, it's a bit complicated. The monuments are protected under the Antiquities Act. So, Congress can certainly pass law that amends that but barring such a change the monuments are protected (as are all archeological and historic resources on federal lands). I rather doubt this will go anywhere; it's just a symbolic gesture. That there are members of Congress who'd make such a gesture is a disturbing, but different, issue.
 

Quaama

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There is a strong possibility all confederate statues and monuments will be removed from Gettysburg. Correct me if I am wrong but current federal law allows removal and given the times we live in, nothing would surprise me.

Probably not at the moment BUT once HR7608 is enacted into law then the answer is 'Yes' because Section 442 starts off by saying "Notwithstanding any other provision of law or policy to the contrary ..." which basically means it will override any law that has protected them until HR 7608 becomes law. ['Notwithstanding' in that context essentially translates to 'in spite of'.]
 

John Winn

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State of Jefferson
Probably not at the moment BUT once HR7608 is enacted into law then the answer is 'Yes' because Section 442 starts off by saying "Notwithstanding any other provision of law or policy to the contrary ..." which basically means it will override any law that has protected them until HR 7608 becomes law. ['Notwithstanding' in that context essentially translates to 'in spite of'.]
I'm not an attorney but I don't think Congress can just demand that laws be ignored; they have to change those laws. So, if the Antiquities Act isn't amended then there'd be a legal conflict. I think it would end up in the courts right away as the Department of The Interior would not be able to carry out such a law if it would then also be violating another.

We'll see I suppose but I really don't think this is going to go anywhere; just a symbolic gesture.
 

DanSBHawk

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Wisconsin
I really don't understand your "glorifies one specific race" in regards to either monuments or the presentation of history.

We have always been a predominately white country, for over the first 100 years, minorities other then blacks were rather limited, and their role was largely confined to laborers through slavery......... consequently it's not surprising most the major figures and contributers actually were white...

Shouldn't the presentation of historical figures actually be based on merit and accomplishments regardless of race? If so the majority will be white. I know of no monument, whether to Columbus, Washington, Lincoln, Grant or Lee where the primary reason of the monument isn't accomplishments, but that merely they were white.......so it's hardly glorifying race.
There's no sense in elaborating on this, as I know from previous discussions that you and I will not agree on this, and the discussion would require going beyond the scope of this thread and the rules of this forum. I thought I already posted this, but it seemed to have disappeared.
 
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mo
There's no sense in elaborating on this, as I know from previous discussions that you and I will not agree on this, and the discussion would require going beyond the scope of this thread and the rules of this forum. I thought I already posted this, but it seemed to have disappeared.
Yes because if your suggesting history shouldn't be presented by accomplishment and merit regardless of race, I certainly do disagree.

If the majority of major figures are one race, that is what should be presented, as accurately protraying events and figures isn't "glorifying one race" at all, it's actually accurately presenting history. Which is what history is supposed to be....what actually was, and the major figures accomplishing it.
 

Viper21

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Does anyone have any before and after pictures of monument Avenue? I plan on visiting the Avenue this Spring... but maybe it's not even worth it... I'm just curious as to what it looks like now since this attack on monuments began...
Uh... yeah. What does it look like now you ask..? Um, disgusting. The Lee monument is covered in graffiti, plenty of it profane, & has a fence around it.
 

Pete Longstreet

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Uh... yeah. What does it look like now you ask..? Um, disgusting. The Lee monument is covered in graffiti, plenty of it profane, & has a fence around it.
I did see pictures of the defaced Lee monument, unfortunately. Is the rest of the Avenue in similar condition? I've never been, so I don't know the layout, etc. I'm trying to figure out if it's worth an 8 hour drive to visit...
 

DanSBHawk

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Yes because if your suggesting history shouldn't be presented by accomplishment and merit regardless of race, I certainly do disagree.

If the majority of major figures are one race, that is what should be presented, as accurately protraying events and figures isn't "glorifying one race" at all, it's actually accurately presenting history. Which is what history is supposed to be....what actually was, and the major figures accomplishing it.
No, I didn't suggest anything about presenting history by merit or accomplishment.

I was reading about this initiative today. It fits in with the subject. From the site:
  • inspire students to want to become involved in their constitutional democracy and help to sustain our republic;
  • tell a full and complete narrative of America’s plural yet shared story;
  • celebrate the compromises needed to make our constitutional democracy work;
  • cultivate civic honesty and patriotism that leaves space to both love and critique this country;
  • teach history and civics both through a timeline of events and the themes that run through those events.
 
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Quaama

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Does anyone have any before and after pictures of monument Avenue? I plan on visiting the Avenue this Spring... but maybe it's not even worth it... I'm just curious as to what it looks like now since this attack on monuments began...

I'd also like to see a 'before and after'. I just visited Google maps and that can give you a 'before' [probably the last chance to see it as it was], JEB Stuart still atop his mount and the R E Lee monument without blemish and no fence.
 
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