Is the Abbeville Institute a Reliable Source for Information Related to the Civil War?

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CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Could you kindly define what does "Cultural Marxism and perversity of Modern America" mean? One thing I admire about the Confederates is that they were not ashamed of their pro-slavery causes and they openly stated them in speeches and writings. They honestly thought slavery was positive good and their liberties of holding human beings in chattel slavery were threatened by 'Black Republicans.' I expect the same kind of honesty and integrity from Pro-Confederate members as well as Pro-Union members.
 

C.W. Roden

Formerly: SouthernFriedOtaku
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You don't need the Super Secret Yankee decoder to notice the Abbeville Institute's unabashed hatred against 'the Yankees'. Sure, I understand why the NY baseball team isn't liked by many, but why the people from anywhere above the mason-dixon line? It seems like it the narratives are always the same - 'The South is good and the North is bad. The country has gone down the drain because of the Yanks'. And it is the same people who insist 'It is Heritage, not Hate'.

"I hat the Constitution, this Great Republic, too
I hate the Freedman's Bureau in uniforms of blue
I hate the nasty eagle with all his brag and fuss
The lying, thieving Yankees, I hates 'em worse and worse!"

From the song "Oh, I'm a Good Old Rebel"

I think it is a good song, but I don't think any organization promotes the similar view in the 21st century for their modern political agenda is not a reliable source for real history.
Yeah they do tend to go a bit above and beyond the good-natured Yankee jokes, ala Lewis Grizzard huh? I've only ever made a couple of them on my own blog, but most of my readers are aware they are meant to be tongue-in-cheek. There are in fact a number of good folks above the Mason-Dixon who stand in unity with proper Confederate heritage defenders -- you know the ones who REALLY insist it is Heritage Not Hate, and who don't just use that directive as some nifty slogan. The ones who have no political agenda beyond honoring the dead and preserving the symbols of that identity.
The Sons of Union Veterans Civil War (SUVCW) being a good example. Plenty of honorable Northern men in that group.
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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You don't need the Super Secret Yankee decoder to notice the Abbeville Institute's unabashed hatred against 'the Yankees'. Sure, I understand why the NY baseball team isn't liked by many, but why the people from anywhere above the mason-dixon line? It seems like it the narratives are always the same - 'The South is good and the North is bad. The country has gone down the drain because of the Yanks'. And it is the same people who insist 'It is Heritage, not Hate'.

"I hate the Constitution, this Great Republic, too
I hate the Freedman's Bureau in uniforms of blue
I hate the nasty eagle with all his brag and fuss
The lying, thieving Yankees, I hates 'em worse and worse!"

From the song "Oh, I'm a Good Old Rebel"

I think it is a good song, but I don't think any organization promotes the similar view in the 21st century for their modern political agenda is a reliable source for real history.
Wouldn't you say this was reciprocal? From the unabashed Northern groups I've seen, I see nothing to indicate less a viseral Yankee hatred for Southern heritage, folkways and mores than are Southern attitudes for those of the North.











 
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Harvey Johnson

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Yeah, I need one of those decoder rings myself.
You have to whine and complain until you get your mom to buy the right brand of sugar-saturated cereal. It also helps to throw a temper tantrum about how evil white Southerners are and how you need the coded ring to disclose their identity lest they hide it successfully. Then your can read the cereal carton box for information to post here.
 

John Fenton

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how evil white Southerners are and how you need the coded ring to disclose their identity lest they hide it successfully.
Which is the whole idea of the Abbeville Institute, hide in plain sight under the banner of “the southern tradition”.
many of it’s members are still associated with the LotS or were former members. The decoder ring helps you see behind the curtain because both groups say the same thing except using different language. My box says “racism isn’t isolated to the south but the confederacy initiated a war that cost 600,000 lives to secure the right to own people”. My problem is with the confederacy, it’s legacy, white supremacy, and neo-confederates, not the south per se.

You have to whine and complain
Nobody does it better than a white supremacist .
 

19thGeorgia

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My problem is with the confederacy, it’s legacy, white supremacy, and neo-confederates, not the south per se.

Nobody does it better than a white supremacist .
The North (the "Union") was a white supremacist society and government (heck, Lincoln was a white supremacist). It can be rightly said that the "Free Soil" movement's real aim in outlawing slavery was to outlaw black people (for example see 1859 Oregon Constitution). Today, the North has its own home-grown white supes and their existence is not due to any connection with the South or anything Confederate.
 
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John Fenton

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The North (the "Union") was a white supremacist society and government (heck, Lincoln was a white supremacist). It can be rightly said that the "Free Soil" movement's real aim in outlawing slavery was to outlaw black people (for example see 1859 Oregon Constitution). Today, the North has its own home-grown white supes and their existence is not due to any connection with the South or anything Confederate.
And i said as you just quoted me:
My problem is with the confederacy, it’s legacy, white supremacy, and neo-confederates, not the south per se.
by glorifying the confederacy’s ”peculiar institution” as benevolent, Christian, and civilizing only lends credit to white supremacy.
however racist the north was [and it was / is racist to a large extent] it does not equate with that institution.
meanwhile as the north moved toward equality the south entrenched it’s self in the “southern tradition”. The 1964 civil rights act was first proposed by a new Englander while southerners rallied around the likes of Lester Maddox and George Wallace .

edit added: organizations like the Abbeville Institute only help promulgate racism nationwide .
 
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John Fenton

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Can you provide examples of them "promulgating racism"? Because I'd disagree with that assertion.
first and foremost through the internet the entire world has access to this propaganda.

The anti-Americanism of the left is contempt for Americans, specifically, white Americans, most of whom are Christian, heterosexual, (more or less) pro-capitalist, and who love their country.
By Jack Kerwick on May 29, 2019
from abbevilleinstitute.org
the anti-americanism is ridiculous but,
can a person be of color and still be all of those other things? not to mention the new bigotry on religion and sexual orientation.

To call it [the institution of slavery] racist is really to extend that term beyond meaning. It was certainly built on the belief that blacks were meant for labor, and as workers they were indeed more efficient and profitable than white laborers in the North, but blacks were an intimate part of plantation life, most particularly in the main house, and blacks and whites grew up together, sometimes worked together, and often prayed together. The racism in the North, where blacks were unwelcome and ill-treated–the race riot in New York in 1863, when some 120 blacks were murdered, is illustrative–was far greater and deeper than anything in the South.
By Kirkpatrick Sale on Oct 26, 2017
from abbevilleinstitute.org

in the second sentence the author admits that blacks were meant for labor and better at it than whites. this gives the implication that whites were better at more sophisticated endeavors, or smarter, as they were the masters.it fails to mention that these blacks were considered sub-human and were property.
so the north was racist but the south was also slave and it is estimated that between 30,000 and 100,000 slaves escaped to the north and canada, which was preferred as beyond the reach of the fugitive slave act but even there they had Black Laws. the quote above implies that everything was milk and honey in the south and the slaves more like partners than owned property.

these are only two examples and they [abbeville inst.] avoid talking about how slavery, white privilege , and southern tradition are inseparable.
as to the 120 blacks murdered, as i have said as much as 100,000 [on the undergouund RR. many others went west or south to spanish florida] also escaped to the north with northern help, and of the 5000 lynchings in the US , 79% were in the south. most whites were lynched in the west and four northern [union] states had no lynchings at all.
 
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Andersonh1

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first and foremost through the internet the entire world has access to this propaganda.

The anti-Americanism of the left is contempt for Americans, specifically, white Americans, most of whom are Christian, heterosexual, (more or less) pro-capitalist, and who love their country.
By Jack Kerwick on May 29, 2019
from abbevilleinstitute.org
the anti-americanism is ridiculous but,
can a person be of color and still be all of those other things? not to mention the new bigotry on religion and sexual orientation.

To call it [the institution of slavery] racist is really to extend that term beyond meaning. It was certainly built on the belief that blacks were meant for labor, and as workers they were indeed more efficient and profitable than white laborers in the North, but blacks were an intimate part of plantation life, most particularly in the main house, and blacks and whites grew up together, sometimes worked together, and often prayed together. The racism in the North, where blacks were unwelcome and ill-treated–the race riot in New York in 1863, when some 120 blacks were murdered, is illustrative–was far greater and deeper than anything in the South.
By Kirkpatrick Sale on Oct 26, 2017
from abbevilleinstitute.org

in the second sentence the author admits that blacks were meant for labor and better at it than whites. this gives the implication that whites were better at more sophisticated endeavors, or smarter, as they were the masters.it fails to mention that these blacks were considered sub-human and were property.
so the north was racist but the south was also slave and it is estimated that between 30,000 and 100,000 slaves escaped to the north and canada, which was preferred as beyond the reach of the fugitive slave act but even there they had Black Laws. the quote above implies that everything was milk and honey in the south and the slaves more like partners than owned property.

these are only two examples and they [abbeville inst.] avoid talking about how slavery, white privilege , and southern tradition are inseparable.
as to the 120 blacks murdered, as i have said as much as 100,000 [on the undergouund RR. many others went west or south to spanish florida] also escaped to the north with northern help, and of the 5000 lynchings in the US , 79% were in the south. most whites were lynched in the west and four northern [union] states had no lynchings at all.
Talking about 19th century beliefs is part of exploring and understanding history. The author is not necessarily endorsing that belief by saying that it existed. Pointing out northern racism is shining the light on an often-suppressed part of history, and more of that needs to happen.

"Slavery, white privilege and southern tradition are inseparable" is your opinion, one many would take issue with. But it is that type of opinion that leads to the necessity of defending the South in the first place, which is one of the points the author is making, based on this short excerpt you've quoted here.

You have not made your case. Out of the many hundreds of articles on the site, I've also found things that I disagree with. A lot of different people contribute to Abbeville, and some older material is sometimes republished, so differences of world view are going to appear. But if you go into the site with the belief that "Slavery, white privilege and southern tradition are inseparable" then you'll find things that aren't there and you'll read into articles things that the author did not intend. There are things of great value in the southern point of view and southern tradition, and I don't see many other sites bringing them to light, so I'm grateful that Abbeville does.
 

John Fenton

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Talking about 19th century beliefs is part of exploring and understanding history. The author is not necessarily endorsing that belief by saying that it existed. Pointing out northern racism is shining the light on an often-suppressed part of history, and more of that needs to happen.

"Slavery, white privilege and southern tradition are inseparable" is your opinion, one many would take issue with. But it is that type of opinion that leads to the necessity of defending the South in the first place, which is one of the points the author is making, based on this short excerpt you've quoted here.

You have not made your case. Out of the many hundreds of articles on the site, I've also found things that I disagree with. A lot of different people contribute to Abbeville, and some older material is sometimes republished, so differences of world view are going to appear. But if you go into the site with the belief that "Slavery, white privilege and southern tradition are inseparable" then you'll find things that aren't there and you'll read into articles things that the author did not intend. There are things of great value in the southern point of view and southern tradition, and I don't see many other sites bringing them to light, so I'm grateful that Abbeville does.
Now it’s your turn to provide examples of the great things about southern tradition.
I did make my case for them “helping promulgating racism and white supremacy “ and the way they twist facts or outright lie. they are not a reliable source and are completely biased. i understand your attachment because their arguments are the same ones i read here time after time and debunked again and again. Read their trash all you like but don’t tell me that they are a source for true facts. I know perfectly well what the authors intend as do you.
there is no defense for slavery or the confederacy.
 
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Andersonh1

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For value in exploring southern history, how about today's entry? It's a review of the publication of Maxcy Gregg's sporting journals. Where else are you likely to find a review of a book like this?


Suzanne Parfitt Johnson has edited Gregg’s hunting journals of one such sportsman form antebellum times, the prominent South Carolinian, Maxcy Gregg. Gregg is best known as a prominent lawyer, fire eater, and Confederate general before his death at the Battle of Fredericksburg. Maxcy Gregg was also a resident of the city of Columbia where he practiced law, a fact that gives his sporting journals even more value. Gregg’s journals illustrate how close he is to his country kin in worldview and culture and how dominant agrarian values and culture among city dwellers in the South. Gregg complains of his urban “confinement,” the “rascally” and the tedious lawyer trade that he pursues. Every reasonable opportunity is taken by Maxcy Gregg to go afield.​
As Dr. Kibler notes in his foreword, Gregg’s journals are rich sources on the customs, topography, ornithology, climate, flora and fauna of the Carolinas, Georgia, and Mexico. Gregg’s grandfather, Jonathan Maxcy, was the first president of South Carolina College. Maxcy Gregg was a student of the first rank when he attended South Carolina College. He also did not receive his diploma, protesting a coin toss in is favor that resulted in his being named the top student in his class. Gregg thought the faculty needed to make the hard choice between himself and his academic rival–he wanted no academic prizes gained by the whims of madam fortune. This incident revealed in Gregg both high principle and a certain intransigence, traits one expects in a future fire eater. Gregg’s academic credentials shine through in the journals in his meticulous descriptions of weather, location as determined by latitude and longitude, his facility with the Latin names of birds, and his astronomical observations of rare Aurora Borealis over the city of Columbia.​
---------------------​
Maxcy Gregg’s Sporting Journals is an important work for what it reveals both purposefully and accidentally. Such works offer important windows into a world that is almost, though not completely lost to us. As usual, Jim Kibler’s foreword is insightful and informative. Suzanne Johnson’s introduction was superb in offering both important context for the journal as well as important insights on Maxcy Gregg’s place in Columbia society. The footnotes were most useful in bringing to the fore vital information on Gregg’s outdoor ventures, as well as the people and places of the time. Gregg’s journal is an outstanding source for understanding the sporting pursuits of an important South Carolininian, but as Johnson and Kibler suggest, it is more than just a sporting journal for the reader with a discerning mind. It is a window into the everyday of antebellum culture in Columbia, South Carolina as recorded by one Carolina’s most intelligent, observant, and accomplished sons. As such, it provides a very important addition to our knowledge and understanding of both the man, the place, and the time.​
 
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JonnyReb_In_MI

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Which is the whole idea of the Abbeville Institute, hide in plain sight under the banner of “the southern tradition”.
many of it’s members are still associated with the LotS or were former members. The decoder ring helps you see behind the curtain because both groups say the same thing except using different language.
I love how the decoder ring is still being talked about, LOL... The funniest part of all is that it's about as real as pro-wrestling and that curtain you claim that racists are hiding behind.

My box says “racism isn’t isolated to the south but the confederacy initiated a war that cost 600,000 lives to secure the right to own people”.
My box says (and here I thought I was the only one with a talking box!) "I agree that racism isn't just a Southern problem, but the idea that 'the South initiated any war at all, especially one to own slaves' is preposterous to me based on my reading of the historical record.

My problem is with ... white supremacy...
On this I'll stand beside you a thousand percent, but when you say...

My problem is with the confederacy, it’s legacy, ... and neo-confederates...
... you automatically alienate me because I have a different understanding of what the Confederacy was & it's legacy - one that has nothing to do with racism, slavery or white supremacy.

The term "neo-confederate" is one that has no solid definition. It's been used in reference to numerous groups of people & causes over the last 80 years, often as a derogatory term, a slur, or a term of disparagement. The prefix "neo-" means new, and there is nothing new or racist about honoring the military service of nearly one-million Southern males – ranging from pre-teen boys to elderly gentlemen – who fought to defend their families, homes, communities & home-states from an invading military force during the War Between the States, and remembering the sacrifice of the 250,000+ men who gave their lives toward that end. If doing that by raising flags related to their military service, erecting memorials to their eternal honor, locating their graves & making sure that they're properly marked, and perpetuating the best aspects of the Southern-heritage that they have passed down to us makes me a "neo-Confederate" then I'll wear that label with pride. In no way does doing those things perpetuate white supremacy or make anyone a racist.

And i said as you just quoted me:

by glorifying the confederacy’s ”peculiar institution” as benevolent, Christian, and civilizing only lends credit to white supremacy.
however racist the north was [and it was / is racist to a large extent] it does not equate with that institution.
meanwhile as the north moved toward equality the south entrenched it’s self in the “southern tradition”. The 1964 civil rights act was first proposed by a new Englander while southerners rallied around the likes of Lester Maddox and George Wallace .
To hang "the peculiar institution" in general around the neck of the Confederacy is extremely dishonest. It was an institution that has roots stretching back to Africans selling other Africans into slavery long before the Confederacy or the United States even existed; those roots stretch all the way through this country's colonial & founding eras and the institution technically still existed in the United States of America until the ratification of the 13th Amendment months after the Confederacy no longer existed.

With that being said, the end of slavery is the one happy accident that the war's result brought forth, and I don't know anyone who glorifies slavery or wishes for it's return. Still yet, it would have been better if the South had been allowed to peacefully secede and for slavery to have been allowed to die in both the Union & Confederacy without war (which other examples in the civilized world of that time show us to have been possible if not likely).

As for the post war years & the decades of racial unrest - segregation, Jim Crow, race riots, etc. were hardly unique to the South throughout that entire period, and much of the hostility between the races in the South might have never been if not for the Radical-Republicans, Union Leagues & other groups of carpetbaggers & scalawags working overtime to stir & build the hostility up during the Reconstruction-era.

edit added: organizations like the Abbeville Institute only help promulgate racism nationwide .
This is a pretty bold statement and, while I haven't read every article on their site, I've yet to read anything on their site to support such a claim.

... they twist facts or outright lie. they are not a reliable source and are completely biased.
Having studied the war & it's causes/effects for decades, I'd say the same about folks who say things like "the confederacy initiated a war that cost 600,000 lives to secure the right to own people.”

Read their trash all you like but don’t tell me that they are a source for true facts. I know perfectly well what the authors intend as do you.
As I said before, I haven't read everything ever posted on the site (far from it), and I don't always agree with everything I read there. The Institute, however, has numerous authors; anyone can submit an article... heck, I've written some stuff and thought about getting it published there. While not every author who contributes there is worth trusting, some of them often are and they've written some really good, fact-based history pieces.
 

John Fenton

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This is a pretty bold statement and, while I haven't read every article on their site, I've yet to read anything on their site to support such a claim.
it is obivious from the comments in this post that you spend a lot of time on abbeville’s site. Please provide examples of southern tradition.
 

John Fenton

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Suzanne Parfitt Johnson has edited Gregg’s hunting journals of one such sportsman form antebellum times, the prominent South Carolinian, Maxcy Gregg.
So hunting is uniquely southern and virtuous ? hunting and outdoor skills are a southern tradition ?
Theodore Roosevelt was born in NY city.
abraham lincoln was a frontiersman And grew up in Indiana .
Daniel Boone was born in Pennsylvania and learned his outdoor skills there . He had nothing but trouble in the south and when he left it for Missouri , Missouri was still Spanish and he thought he was leaving the US altogether.

Consider, too, that, though hunting had always been an important sub- sistence activity for pioneers, American colonists had identified agriculture as the basis for civilization. Even in Thomas Jefferson's era, most Americans considered full-time hunters to be barbaric and backwards men who, like Indians, could lay no legitimate claim to land. According to the Enlighten- ment precepts of colonial and early national Americans, only men with plows—men who rejected hunting as a way of life—had the right to claim the continent.
Through hunting, American men sought to invigorate themselves with frontier manliness, rekindle individualism and self-reliance, and demonstrate Anglo-Saxon might to immigrants and upstart foreign pow- ers.
DanielJustin Herman Department of History Central Washington University

" That the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States by the Federal Government, and its. encroachments upon the reserved rights.of the Sovereign States of -.this Union, especially in relation to slavery, amply justify this State, so far as any duty or obligation to her Confederates is involved, in;.dissolving at once, all political connection with her co-States..; -and that she forbears the exercise of this manifest right of- self-government from consid- erations of expediency only." Maxcy Gregg
 
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Andersonh1

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So hunting is uniquely southern and virtuous ? hunting and outdoor skills are a southern tradition ?
Theodore Roosevelt was born in NY city.
abraham lincoln was a frontiersman And grew up in Indiana .
Daniel Boone was born in Pennsylvania.

Consider, too, that, though hunting had always been an important sub- sistence activity for pioneers, American colonists had identified agriculture as the basis for civilization. Even in Thomas Jefferson's era, most Americans considered full-time hunters to be barbaric and backwards men who, like Indians, could lay no legitimate claim to land. According to the Enlighten- ment precepts of colonial and early national Americans, only men with plows—men who rejected hunting as a way of life—had the right to claim the continent.
Through hunting, American men sought to invigorate themselves with frontier manliness, rekindle individualism and self-reliance, and demonstrate Anglo-Saxon might to immigrants and upstart foreign pow- ers.
DanielJustin Herman Department of History Central Washington University

" That the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States by the Federal Government, and its. encroachments upon the reserved rights.of the Sovereign States of -.this Union, especially in relation to slavery, amply justify this State, so far as any duty or obligation to her Confederates is involved, in;.dissolving at once, all political connection with her co-States..; -and that she forbears the exercise of this manifest right of- self-government from consid- erations of expediency only." Maxcy Gregg
This is what I was referring to in my previous post. A book review, highlighting a window into a place and time in our history as recorded by Maxcy Gregg is an opportunity to learn. But you have gone out of your way to find fault with it, and of course to go looking for a link to slavery, because heaven forbid we look at any historical subject in isolation and attempt to learn something about it without someone shouting SLAVERY at us.

As I said, my impression is that you're looking for fault, and intentionally reading meanings into these blog entries and reviews that the author did not intend. You're not being objective at all in your analysis, in my view.
 

Andersonh1

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I should note that Maxcy Gregg signed the South Carolina declaration of immediate causes of secession And we all know what it said. Yeah buddy, a great American.
So we can learn nothing else about history from the man and his life?

I'll never understand this attitude. Find something you object to in a historical figure's life, and then declare him or her a pariah, unfit for anything except turning into a villain. It's poisoning the study and understanding of history.
 
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John Fenton

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So we can learn nothing else about history from the man and his life?

I'll never understand this attitude. Find something you object to in a historical figure's life, and then declare him or her a pariah, unfit for anything except turning into a villain. It's poisoning the study and understanding of history.
What would you teach us ? That he fought for the US which gained new lands for the south to expand slavery ? Then took up arms against that country ?
 
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