Restricted Debate Is Lost Cause a real thing or not?

WJC

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"[William Yancey] endeavored to combat the antislavery sentiment in England by emphasizing that slavery was no issue in the struggle."
Thanks for your response.
Yancey was a diplomat attempting to represent a slave 'government' to the Court of St. James's, an anti-slavery government. It was in his interest and the interest of those he represented to deny that the rebel cause was based on preserving and promoting slavery.
 

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Then you haven't read many books by authors like Douglas Southall Freeman or Shelby Foote or Bud Robertson. They are magnificent writers who helped to perpetuate the Lost Cause narrative even while writing excellent history. All three writers have put forth the "overwhelming Union advantage" saying things like "the south never had a chance," and " . . .the north fought the war with one hand tied behind its back."
I have read books from 2 of those authors but I don't recall those exact quotes. Maybe it is because I already knew that to start with, :biggrin:.

Edited.
 
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Does the author use any footnotes or endnotes for these passages?
I found this review of Hudson Strode's work (by Prof Joseph Tregle formerly of LSU) which might help put this as a source into context:

  • "For this is polemical literature reminiscent of the passions of the 1860's rather than history, an apologia almost overwhelming in the simplicity of its acceptance of a god-like Davis. Worse, it is disputatious without offering much in the way of evidence to support its various assertions and implications. There has been no attempt to footnote this volume in accepted scholarly fashion; one must usually rely upon the author's intuitive reading of the mind and will of Davis and his contemporaries, or upon the frequent quotations from memoirs and diaries of pro-Davis adherents, generally either irrelevant, or relevant to matters of little consequence."
https://journals.psu.edu/pmhb/article/view/41606/41327
 
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Does the author use any footnotes or endnotes for these passages?
I have an EPUB version of Strode's second volume but it is not of the best quality and in this volume Strode wrote that the 3rd volume would have the most source information. In this second volume he does list at the bottom the sources but maybe due to scanning I am having difficulty matching any statement with a source. I apologize for not having a definite answer but if I had all three volumes in hardcopy I could give you a more accurate answer. Maybe someone out there reading this can help out.
 
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I have an EPUB version of Strode's second volume but it is not of the best quality and in this volume Strode wrote that the 3rd volume would have the most source information. In this second volume he does list at the bottom the sources but maybe due to scanning I am having difficulty matching any statement with a source. I apologize for not having a definite answer but if I had all three volumes in hardcopy I could give you a more accurate answer. Maybe someone out there reading this can help out.
Ok, thanks.
 
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Even the Confederate leadership of the time knew that the Founders wanted the gradual end of slavery.

Alexander Stephens quoted in the newspaper The Southern Confederacy, eight days before the Cornerstone speech, March 13th, 1861, emphasis mine:

"Another grand difference between the old and new Constitution was this, said Mr. Stephens, in the old Constitution the Fathers looked upon the fallacy of the equality of races as underlying the foundations of republican liberty. Jefferson, Madison, and Washington, and many others, were tender of the word Slave in the organic law, and all looked forward to the time when the Institution of Slavery should be removed from our midst as a trouble and a stumbling block. This delusion could not be traced in any of the component parts of the Southern Constitution. In that instrument we solemnly discarded the pestilent heresy of fancy politicians, that all men, of all races, were equal, and we had made African inequality and subordination, and the equality of white men, the chief cornerstone of the Southern Republic."

Here's the actual page digitized and preserved:
https://gahistoricnewspapers.galileo.usg.edu/lccn/sn82014677/1861-03-13/ed-1/seq-2.pdf


The quote comes about 3/4 of the way down the first column.
 

Rebforever

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Even the Confederate leadership of the time knew that the Founders wanted the gradual end of slavery.

Alexander Stephens quoted in the newspaper The Southern Confederacy, eight days before the Cornerstone speech, March 13th, 1861, emphasis mine:

"Another grand difference between the old and new Constitution was this, said Mr. Stephens, in the old Constitution the Fathers looked upon the fallacy of the equality of races as underlying the foundations of republican liberty. Jefferson, Madison, and Washington, and many others, were tender of the word Slave in the organic law, and all looked forward to the time when the Institution of Slavery should be removed from our midst as a trouble and a stumbling block. This delusion could not be traced in any of the component parts of the Southern Constitution. In that instrument we solemnly discarded the pestilent heresy of fancy politicians, that all men, of all races, were equal, and we had made African inequality and subordination, and the equality of white men, the chief cornerstone of the Southern Republic."

Here's the actual page digitized and preserved:
https://gahistoricnewspapers.galileo.usg.edu/lccn/sn82014677/1861-03-13/ed-1/seq-2.pdf


The quote comes about 3/4 of the way down the first column.
At least the Confederate Constitution expressed their feelings openly while Lincoln was working as hard as he could for Colonization up almost to his death. White Supremesist was the age of the day and was cleaned up somewhat in the 1960s, one hundred years later.
 
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At least the Confederate Constitution expressed their feelings openly while Lincoln was working as hard as he could for Colonization up almost to his death. White Supremesist was the age of the day and was cleaned up somewhat in the 1960s, one hundred years later.
It was to be voluntary, never forced, and where do you get : "while Lincoln was working as hard as he could for Colonization up almost to his death."???

Kevin Dally
 
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At least the Confederate Constitution expressed their feelings openly while Lincoln was working as hard as he could for Colonization up almost to his death. White Supremesist was the age of the day and was cleaned up somewhat in the 1960s, one hundred years later.
At least they were open about continuing forced servitude and ownership of the children of the slaves in perpetuity? Did you really just state that as if it were a positive endorsement of their actions?

Lincoln certainly supported colonization for a lengthy period of time.

We know he wrote privately to the governor of Louisiana in 1864 that he supported black suffrage, and of course in his last speech he said so publicly. We know Lewis Powell, one of the conspirators and the man who stabbed multiple people in the attack on William Seward, stated that Booth proclaimed that he would assassinate Lincoln for black citizenship. Booth proclaimed it was the last speech Lincoln would ever give, and successfully assassinated him 3 days later.

But even if he did intend for colonization to run it's course, that is still a far more moral outcome than continued chattel slavery.
 

Rebforever

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At least they were open about continuing forced servitude and ownership of the children of the slaves in perpetuity? Did you really just state that as if it were a positive endorsement of their actions?

Lincoln certainly supported colonization for a lengthy period of time.

We know he wrote privately to the governor of Louisiana in 1864 that he supported black suffrage, and of course in his last speech he said so publicly. We know Lewis Powell, one of the conspirators and the man who stabbed multiple people in the attack on William Seward, stated that Booth proclaimed that he would assassinate Lincoln for black citizenship. Booth proclaimed it was the last speech Lincoln would ever give, and successfully assassinated him 3 days later.

But even if he did intend for colonization to run it's course, that is still a far more moral outcome than continued chattel slavery.
Well, your response doesn’t fit in their time line in history. Slavery was legal in America then. I don’t think it is moral to ship someone to another continent because one does not want them mixing with Whites.
 
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Well, your response doesn’t fit in their time line in history. Slavery was legal in America then. I don’t think it is moral to ship someone to another continent because one does not want them mixing with Whites.
Legality and morality are not the same, and slavery is one of the best examples of that divide.

I think it is more moral to ship someone to another location so they can be free than keeping them in chattel slavery, where even their children are possessions, there is no protection from rape, and there is no legal avenue toward freedom.

Of course, the American Colonization Society and the proctors chosen to set up the colony in Chiriqui repudiated forced relocation, as it was to be voluntary, making the question moot.
 
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And your point is...what? Who are all these thousands and thousands who supposedly DID support "Colonization" of blacks?
That's a broad assertion being touted about here.

Kevin Dally
Colonization was an issue that divided the Black community. For example, during 1861, Frederick Douglass supported James Redpath, who was the General Agent of Emigration to Haiti, and his colonization efforts that led to more than a thousand Blacks from the United States settling in that country during that year. Even Douglass's assistant editor from his newspaper, William J. Watkins, was one of Redpath's recruiters. By 1863, Frederick Douglass's interests in colonization changed and he was adamantly against it.

The African Civilization Society (ACS) was an organization that promoted Black colonization among some of its goals and it established the Black colony in Liberia during the early 1820's. The ASC's founders and membership included prominent Black abolitionists and religious leaders such as Henry Highland Garnet, Martin R. Delaney, Rufus L. Perry, Richard H. Cain, Amos N. Freeman, and John Sella Martin.
 
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To wit, Lincoln suspended the Chiriqui colonization project on Oct 7, 1862 over complaints from other countries that to continue would require treaties with the surrounding nations. The man overseeing the project, Senator Samuel C. Pomeroy of Kansas, was irate, stating that over 13,700 freed blacks had applied for relocation.

They don't ask you to apply when they are loading you up in the ships.

Source: Collected Works, 5:434; Samuel C. Pomeroy, Washington, to James Rood Doolittle, Racine, Wis., Oct. 20, 1862, James Rood Doolittle MSS., Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, reprinted in Publications of the Southern Historical Association 9 (Nov. 1905):401–2.
 

Jimklag

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Okay, folks. Lost Cause is a fairly broad topic, but I'm fairly certain Colonization and who supported it is off topic by a wide margin. Please confine your posts to the subject of whether or not the Lost Cause is a real thing. Start a new thread if you want to discuss other subjects.

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John S. Carter

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The noted historian Bruce Catton stated that the Lost Cause legend helped achieve national reconciliation between North and South after the Civil War. In his 1981 essay collection, Reflections on the Civil War, he concluded, "the legend of the lost cause has served the entire country very well", and he went on to say:

“The things that were done during the Civil War have not been forgotten, of course, but we now see them through a veil. We have elevated the entire conflict to the realm where it is no longer explosive. It is a part of American legend, a part of American history, a part, if you will, of American romance. It moves men mightily, to this day, but it does not move them in the direction of picking up their guns and going at it again. We have had national peace since the war ended, and we will always have it, and I think the way Lee and his soldiers conducted themselves in the hours of surrender has a great deal to do with it.”
History at times has been turned into novels by those who wish to alter the facts as to comfort or reassure the living that those who have gone before or the time of before where not what they know to be the accura.The original "BIRTH of a Nation''and even 'GONE with the WIND' are romantic enturbetation of those times .History can be written to justify the reason why people acted has they did,be they north ,south , or midwest.Go to a funeral of someone who know and what is said about the deceased is total different from that who you knew.Who the heck did they just bury?
 

Potomac Pride

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History at times has been turned into novels by those who wish to alter the facts as to comfort or reassure the living that those who have gone before or the time of before where not what they know to be the accura.The original "BIRTH of a Nation''and even 'GONE with the WIND' are romantic enturbetation of those times .History can be written to justify the reason why people acted has they did,be they north ,south , or midwest.Go to a funeral of someone who know and what is said about the deceased is total different from that who you knew.Who the heck did they just bury?
Thanks for your comments. However, I don't really understand what the word enturbetation means in your post. What is that?
 



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