Introducing myself, plus my first question

byron ed

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#41
Here are Goldman/Spengler's words (from 2003) which inspire my question: "In all, one-quarter of military age Southern manhood died in the field, by far the greatest sacrifice ever offered up by a modern nation in war.
That is to recognize he means one-quarter of white military-age Southern manhood. So from the actual total of military-age manhood in the South perhaps about one-eighth were lost, to steal some of the author's thunder on that.

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AndyHall

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#43
Here are Goldman/Spengler's words (from 2003) which inspire my question:

"In all, one-quarter of military age Southern manhood died in the field, by far the greatest sacrifice ever offered up by a modern nation in war. General W T Sherman, the scourge of the South, explained why this would occur in advance. There existed 300,000 fanatics in the South who knew nothing but hunting, drinking, gambling and dueling, a class who benefited from slavery and would rather die than work for a living. To end the war, Sherman stated on numerous occasions these 300,000 had to be killed."

I have been unable to find a source for Sherman's thinking here. It certainly sounds like something Sherman would say. Can anyone help? [Goldman is highly educated, experienced in historical research and many other fields besides; therefore I believe this is worth looking into.]
This sounds like a garbled and exaggerated version of Sherman's somewhat infamous "there is a class of people" letter to the Secretary of War, Stanton, about the ongoing troubles he's had with bushwackers in Kentucky. See Cash's post here for a more complete version of that letter, from the OR, Series I, Vol. 39, Pt. 2, pp. 131 ff.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/there-is-a-class-of-people.121962/

The only other thing I can add is to always, always be skeptical of inflammatory quotes from historical figures that aren't accompanied by their source.

And welcome to CWT from Texas!
 
Joined
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#45
This sounds like a garbled and exaggerated version of Sherman's somewhat infamous "there is a class of people" letter to the Secretary of War, Stanton, about the ongoing troubles he's had with bushwackers in Kentucky. See Cash's post here for a more complete version of that letter, from the OR, Series I, Vol. 39, Pt. 2, pp. 131 ff.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/there-is-a-class-of-people.121962/

!
Thank you Andy for the link to that discussion. Sherman's letter to Stanton indeed sounds like one of the sources which led Goldman to his summary, shall we say, of Sherman's thinking. At this point I am guessing that Goldman read basically everything Sherman ever uttered or wrote, thought it all over for a long while until things became a bit blurry in his memory, and finally convinced himself that Sherman said what Goldman claims.

The more I read of original source material, the more I myself am convinced that Goldman is essentially correct about Sherman's train of thought. This sentiment, regarding the 300,000-strong class of Southern fanatics who needed to be killed in order to bring an end to the war, was almost certainly believed by Sherman. You can practically hear him saying it. In other words, Goldman very likely pieced together the exact truth of the matter, even if Sherman himself never put it exactly like that.

However, it would still be nice to track down more of the relevant Sherman statements and writings.
 

diane

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#48
Welcome!

As others have noted, I believe it's a mashup of things Sherman said in different context and at different times. However, he did write in a letter that 'the present class of men who rule the South must be killed outright.' He was talking about the planters. Another letter he wrote, he advocated deporting the entire planter class to somewhere. And, he did refer to the planters offspring as 'young bloods' who would rather drink, gamble, and duel than work. This was when he was in South Carolina well before the war. He mentioned in another and different context that the war would cost 300,000 lives every year. Sherman didn't make the statement as such that you mention, but he clearly believed the Southern planter aristocracy was very dangerous to the entire country and needed to be eliminated. During the war, and with a war-set mind, he was not adverse to outright killing the lot of them since they were in rebellion anyway.
 
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#49
<Sherman> did write in a letter that 'the present class of men who rule the South must be killed outright.' He was talking about the planters. Another letter he wrote, he advocated deporting the entire planter class to somewhere. And, he did refer to the planters offspring as 'young bloods' who would rather drink, gamble, and duel than work. This was when he was in South Carolina well before the war. He mentioned in another and different context that the war would cost 300,000 lives every year.
Thank you for your response. Could you provide me with the exact sources of those letters and staments please, so I can verify them?
 

rbasin

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#52
Greetings, I would be happy to make another post containing this question if this isn't really the right place for it.

I have been fascinated by the civil war for many years. Probably the thing that really makes me pay attention is the whole topic of how its results and long-term consquences changed America, and perhaps much of the Western world, since 1865.

But for now, my first question: The writer David Goldman, who also publishes under the pen name "Spengler" (referring of course to Oswald Spengler) wrote a column for the June 12, 2003 edition of The Asia Times, entitled "More Killing, Please!" He has since recycled this column several times in various other publications. At present you may read it quoted in full in a more recent column:

https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/05/05/more-killing-please-mr-president/

Here are Goldman/Spengler's words (from 2003) which inspire my question:

"In all, one-quarter of military age Southern manhood died in the field, by far the greatest sacrifice ever offered up by a modern nation in war. General W T Sherman, the scourge of the South, explained why this would occur in advance. There existed 300,000 fanatics in the South who knew nothing but hunting, drinking, gambling and dueling, a class who benefited from slavery and would rather die than work for a living. To end the war, Sherman stated on numerous occasions these 300,000 had to be killed."

I have been unable to find a source for Sherman's thinking here. It certainly sounds like something Sherman would say. Can anyone help? [Goldman is highly educated, experienced in historical research and many other fields besides; therefore I believe this is worth looking into.]
I know there was a letter from halleck to sherman concerning the differing types of southerners. But I don't recall a number being used. its in the official records. happy to post it tonight after work.

Halleck and Sherman wrote to each other alot. great reading.
 


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