Introducing myself, plus my first question

Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
4
#1
Greetings, I would be happy to make another post containing this question if this isn't really the right place for it.

I have been fascinated by the civil war for many years. Probably the thing that really makes me pay attention is the whole topic of how its results and long-term consquences changed America, and perhaps much of the Western world, since 1865.

But for now, my first question: The writer David Goldman, who also publishes under the pen name "Spengler" (referring of course to Oswald Spengler) wrote a column for the June 12, 2003 edition of The Asia Times, entitled "More Killing, Please!" He has since recycled this column several times in various other publications. At present you may read it quoted in full in a more recent column:

https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/05/05/more-killing-please-mr-president/

Here are Goldman/Spengler's words (from 2003) which inspire my question:

"In all, one-quarter of military age Southern manhood died in the field, by far the greatest sacrifice ever offered up by a modern nation in war. General W T Sherman, the scourge of the South, explained why this would occur in advance. There existed 300,000 fanatics in the South who knew nothing but hunting, drinking, gambling and dueling, a class who benefited from slavery and would rather die than work for a living. To end the war, Sherman stated on numerous occasions these 300,000 had to be killed."

I have been unable to find a source for Sherman's thinking here. It certainly sounds like something Sherman would say. Can anyone help? [Goldman is highly educated, experienced in historical research and many other fields besides; therefore I believe this is worth looking into.]
 

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Northern Light

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#3
Well, I am sorry I cannot help you, but I welcome you to the forums from Canada and especially from the Ladies Tea Forum. Drop in and share a cup with us!:smile coffee:
 
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Messages
930
Location
UK
#5
Welcome from the UK and from The First Bull Run/ Manassas Forum

As to your question I am afraid I cannot help. It is entirely probable though that one of our other members might have something.
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
6,376
Location
Hoover, Alabama
#6
Welcome to the group from middle Alabama. I find fault with that notion since the 300,000 that he was describing would have been the well off and socially elite and the vast majority of the Southern (and Northern) armies hardly fit this description.
 

Patrick H

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Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
10,115
#8
Greetings, I would be happy to make another post containing this question if this isn't really the right place for it.

I have been fascinated by the civil war for many years. Probably the thing that really makes me pay attention is the whole topic of how its results and long-term consquences changed America, and perhaps much of the Western world, since 1865.

But for now, my first question: The writer David Goldman, who also publishes under the pen name "Spengler" (referring of course to Oswald Spengler) wrote a column for the June 12, 2003 edition of The Asia Times, entitled "More Killing, Please!" He has since recycled this column several times in various other publications. At present you may read it quoted in full in a more recent column:

https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/05/05/more-killing-please-mr-president/

Here are Goldman/Spengler's words (from 2003) which inspire my question:

"In all, one-quarter of military age Southern manhood died in the field, by far the greatest sacrifice ever offered up by a modern nation in war. General W T Sherman, the scourge of the South, explained why this would occur in advance. There existed 300,000 fanatics in the South who knew nothing but hunting, drinking, gambling and dueling, a class who benefited from slavery and would rather die than work for a living. To end the war, Sherman stated on numerous occasions these 300,000 had to be killed."

I have been unable to find a source for Sherman's thinking here. It certainly sounds like something Sherman would say. Can anyone help? [Goldman is highly educated, experienced in historical research and many other fields besides; therefore I believe this is worth looking into.]
I can't help you with Sherman's thinking, either. Maybe you can't find it because he never said it. Who knows? I don't. But welcome from Missouri anyway.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2016
Messages
5,481
Location
central NC
#9
Welcome aboard @Frrest from the Mid-19th Century Life forum. This forum covers everything Victorian, from how our 19th century friends celebrated holidays to how they lived their daily lives. Hope you'll stop by for a visit! Unfortunately I can't help with your question, but I bet some others will.


 
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Messages
13,116
Location
Mississippi
#10
Greetings, I would be happy to make another post containing this question if this isn't really the right place for it.

I have been fascinated by the civil war for many years. Probably the thing that really makes me pay attention is the whole topic of how its results and long-term consquences changed America, and perhaps much of the Western world, since 1865.

But for now, my first question: The writer David Goldman, who also publishes under the pen name "Spengler" (referring of course to Oswald Spengler) wrote a column for the June 12, 2003 edition of The Asia Times, entitled "More Killing, Please!" He has since recycled this column several times in various other publications. At present you may read it quoted in full in a more recent column:

https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/05/05/more-killing-please-mr-president/

Here are Goldman/Spengler's words (from 2003) which inspire my question:

"In all, one-quarter of military age Southern manhood died in the field, by far the greatest sacrifice ever offered up by a modern nation in war. General W T Sherman, the scourge of the South, explained why this would occur in advance. There existed 300,000 fanatics in the South who knew nothing but hunting, drinking, gambling and dueling, a class who benefited from slavery and would rather die than work for a living. To end the war, Sherman stated on numerous occasions these 300,000 had to be killed."

I have been unable to find a source for Sherman's thinking here. It certainly sounds like something Sherman would say. Can anyone help? [Goldman is highly educated, experienced in historical research and many other fields besides; therefore I believe this is worth looking into.]
I can't help ya with your question, but I can say welcome to Civil War Talk.

Glad ya joined us !

:smile coffee:
 

wbull1

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Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Messages
821
#14
Welcome from Oregon. Out of interest I looked and found a misquoted letter from Sherman to his wife in 7/31/ 1862 the misquoter claimed Sherman called for the "extermination" of Confederates. What I found was:

Now I have got 800 negroes at work on the Fort. The President’s order don’t embrace Tennessee & loyal as well as disloyal Slaves are embraced. My orders are to take all who come in, and we will dispose of them when the Fort is done according to Law and the facts then. My notion is to pay the Kentuckyans slaves for their Stolen horses. As to freeing the slaves, I don’t think the time is come yet. When Negroes are liberated, either they or masters must perish. They cannot exist together except in their present relation, and to expect negroes to change from Slaves to masters without one of those horrible convulsions which at times Startle the world is absurd.

Also:
March 1864

It is enough to make the whole world start at the awful amount of death and destruction…Daily for the last two months has the work progressed and I see no signs of a remission till one or both or all the armies are destroyed…I begin to regard the death and mangling of a couple thousand men as a small affair, a kind of morning dash – and it may be well that we become so hardened.


And:
September 1864

My orders are not designed to meet the humanities of the case, but to prepare for the future struggles in which millions, yea hundreds of millions, of good people outside of Atlanta have a deep interest. We must have peace not in in Atlanta but in all America. You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war on our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out….You might as well appeal against the thunderstorm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride.
 

WJC

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#15
Welcome! Looking forward to your perspective in our discussions! Enjoy!
I am sceptical about the 'Sherman quote'. I don't recall ever encountering it (it is quite a memorable statement) in reading his memoirs or elsewhere. I certainly would like to read it in context if someone can identify the original source. As it is, we only have Mr. Goldman's paraphrase and attribution.
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
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#20
Welcome! As I've always believed it's next to impossible to analyze the hearts and minds of ALL who fought on both sides in this war of Northern Aggression unless you're God himself! The photos and fragments of the written word we're lucky to have today they've left behind are only a fraction of the total sum.
 


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