In 1863 When a Black Man Refused to be Whipped Was He a Murderer if He Killed His Former Enslaver?


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#42
The difference being in 1860 anyone in the military is there voluntarily and should be aware of its rules, regulations, and punishments. Slaves weren't volunteers and emancipated slaves were no longer owned by their former masters. I don't see any problem with emancipated slave West Brogan's defense of himself, after all White Southerners use to shoot and kill each other over insults.
The punishment of flogging was at the whim of the captain.
 
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#44
Can you show me that in the EP?
Yes I have read it and I'll bet you have too, after all you do this for a living. The EP very carefully lists individual counties in LA. and a few other places cause they were already under Federal military control. The Feds having taken New Orleans and the surrounding area before the EP.
 
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#45
My understanding is that Helena and the area around it were not exempted from the EP. In the text of the EP it designates those areas where the EP does not apply and those where it applies. Here is the pertinent part. You can see that the entire state of Arkansas is covered by the EP:

Now, therefore I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, by virtue of the power in me vested as Commander-in-Chief, of the Army and Navy of the United States in time of actual armed rebellion against the authority and government of the United States, and as a fit and necessary war measure for suppressing said rebellion, do, on this first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and in accordance with my purpose so to do publicly proclaimed for the full period of one hundred days, from the day first above mentioned, order and designate as the States and parts of States wherein the people thereof respectively, are this day in rebellion against the United States, the following, to wit:

Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, (except the Parishes of St. Bernard, Plaquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James Ascension, Assumption, Terrebonne, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the City of New Orleans) Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia, (except the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkley, Accomac, Northampton, Elizabeth City, York, Princess Ann, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth[)], and which excepted parts, are for the present, left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued.

And by virtue of the power, and for the purpose aforesaid, I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said designated States, and parts of States, are, and henceforward shall be free; and that the Executive government of the United States, including the military and naval authorities thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons.
Appears as if all of Arkansas was exempted from the Proclamation. Why do you exempt Helena?
 

matthew mckeon

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#47
Even a slave was entitled, by law, to defend their life with deadly force. The gentleman in question, made a statement that he feared for his life. I have never had whipped, and nobody on Civil War Talk had either, but the person had plenty of experience, and apparently the threat seemed credible to him.

While the master was using a whip instead of a battleaxe, he still could have had a homicidal intent. After all a plantation mistress once beat a housemaid to death with a chair.
 
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#52
Flogging was finally banned in the US Army in 1861, the US Navy in 1862. It could be administered for seemingly minor offenses such as spilling ink on the deck of a ship or not closing the toilet door.

https://www.history.navy.mil/resear...rief-history-punishment-flogging-us-navy.html

Here’s my question. Say it’s 1860. If a sailor receives lashes for failing to, as described in this article, properly mark his clothes, is it OK if he kills the captain of his ship after receiving a severe flogging?
Two completely different scenarios. Per the EP slavery was now forbidden in other then certain Border States and Union occupied territories in Tennessee. The slave owner had no right to whip the slave and the slave had every right to defend himself.
If a black man was whipping a white man we wouldn't question the right of a white man to use lethal force to protect himself.
Leftyhunter
 

WJC

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#54
***Posted as Moderator***
Let's stay in the antebellum/Civil War period, not the Jim Crow era: the OP is about the actions of a slave.
 
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#55
Well let us reverse this----If the slave had tried to whip the owner and the owner had the axe and nearly took off the head of the slave---how would the action be considered?----Any human has the right to defend himself---including in my estimation the slave or the master. The system of slavery was wrong---But so was armed invasion of one's homeland with all the crimes entailed in those actions. Sorting out all the rights and wrongs of the war would take more wisdom than anyone could possibly be expected to have. All of us can find injustices to prove points----but I doubt that many views were changed in the past---or present.
 
#56
Well let us reverse this----If the slave had tried to whip the owner and the owner had the axe and nearly took off the head of the slave---how would the action be considered?----Any human has the right to defend himself---including in my estimation the slave or the master. The system of slavery was wrong---But so was armed invasion of one's homeland with all the crimes entailed in those actions. Sorting out all the rights and wrongs of the war would take more wisdom than anyone could possibly be expected to have. All of us can find injustices to prove points----but I doubt that many views were changed in the past---or present.
What does "armed invasion of one's homeland" have to do with a former slave fearing for his life during a whipping from his former master and killing him?
 

uaskme

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#58
Seems like a Occupational Hazard, to me. However, the Slave could of ran away. If the Slave had of retaliated will a whip, or like object, it would of been self defense. But he escalated the altercation with an Axe, a Deadly Weapon. Said Slave, could of ran toward the Yankee. An Option that a Yankee Slave, didn’t Have. Edited.
 
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#59
What does "armed invasion of one's homeland" have to do with a former slave fearing for his life during a whipping from his former master and killing him?
Most Southerners had no slaves---They were responding to threats . I doubt many folks would have approved of the actions of the master. The first time I went to Gettysburg and watched the film and they stated that one out of three Southerners owned slaves I was amazed at the thought---for that meant that two out of three did "NOT" own any. But I suppose we Southerners will always have to carry the sins of our fathers. Maybe one day .
 

WJC

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#60
Seems like a Occupational Hazard, to me. However, the Slave could of ran away. If the Slave had of retaliated will a whip, or like object, it would of been self defense. But he escalated the altercation with an Axe, a Deadly Weapon. Said Slave, could of ran toward the Yankee. An Option that a Yankee Slave, didn’t Have. Edited.
The only options the slave had in 1863 were to take the punishment or run away. Any action of self-defense would have been unacceptable to the slaveholding hierarchy.
 



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