Muzzleldrs Identification help needed please -P-1853 Type 3 Einfield Tower 1862 John Marson, Crown over SHC1...

jpcathome

Cadet
Joined
Oct 2, 2019
I've spent countless hours over the last few weeks trying to research a Tower Enfield I bought from a friend of a friend. Actually many of those hours I enjoyed getting purposely side-tracked, re-learning some of our history that had become fuzzy in my mind and adding quite a bit of new information. The internet can be an amazing source of information, but can also make you want to pull your hair out. I don't want to pull out any more of the little hair I have left, so I'm asking for help with the identification.

Here are the details:

P-1853 - 1862 Tower Enfield Type 3/3band

Dimensions:
Overall Length - 55"
Barrel Length - 39"

Markings:

Lockplate:
Stamped Crown and Tower 1862 on the outside. I. Marson stamped on inside lockplate (See Pics).

Barrel:
Pair of 25's with an illegible symbol in between. (These are typical proof marks from what I understand).
Also present to the right of these marks is an R and at least one other letter that is mostly worn off. (See Pics.)
(I have been trying to remove the barrel to check for additional markings but it is "hung up" about mid length on the stock. The first half of the barrel will lift up as will the 2nd half, but a section in the middle will not come out of the stock. I have not tried to force it out as I don't want to risk damaging the stock.

Stock:

A small stamp with the letters JMJS is in the wood of the stock under the trigger guard to the rear of the trigger. (Although the letters are difficult, the first two, JM are fairly clear, the third is a little less clear, but I'm pretty sure its a J and the last is the most difficult to read, but it appears to be an S.) (See Pics.)
A number 7 is stamped by itself close to the JMJS stamp but possibly "upside down' as compared to the JMJS stamp. (see pics).

On the toe of the stock next to the buttplate is a crown over what appears to be S H over what appears to be C 1 (see pics).

The stock also bears the stamp of John Marson. (See pics.)

I can't see any additional markings on the stock.

I have not been able to see any additional markings, stamps, inscriptions, names, artwork, letters or numbers on the weapon.

The person I purchased the Enfield from is not able to provide any useful information that would help in identifying it or its history.

Please let me know if you need any additional info, pictures, etc. and I will do my best to provide whatever it is that you need.

It is missing all three barrel bands, the front sling swivel, the mainspring and the ramrod. If I end up selling it, should I find replacement parts (original or reproduction) before listing it? Any suggestions as to the best place to purchase the parts?

If I choose to sell it (I hate to sell any firearms, especially one of such historical significance, but my financial situation , any opinions as to potential value, best way to sell it?

Thank you very much for your help.

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The mark on your musket is probably SH G1, and is stated as probably Confederate (see The English Connection, p.116).
Marson was a gun finisher/maker in Birmingham, England, and his markings are seen on Confederate arms. The stock on your musket, unfortunately, has been sanded and refinished, but that is very common. Is there any mark on the flat opposite the lock, possibly in a small circle? It may be faint since it has been sanded.
It appears that you probably have a Confederate musket. Hopefully Lanyard Puller will be along soon to give you a more definitive answer.

In the meantime, could you post a full-length shot or two of the musket?
 
You have an Enfield Pattern 1853, type 3, rifle musket. It was contracted by the CS government through the Sinclair Hamilton Co., and made in Birmingham. Other examples with the SH/G1, SH/G2, etc. up to /G5 are known. The meaning of the "G/x" number has yet to be discovered.

The barrel actually has the standard 5 marks of the Birmingham proof house and the "25" is the English bore size, indicating .577 caliber. The full proof marks on yours are rusted out.
As for replacing the missing or broken parts, they are not interchangeable, as these guns were hand fitted and finished. I've tried 9 different hammers on one of these and none fit.. YES, It's that bad, and would cost more than the gun is worth to accumulate and try the parts, if you can locate them.
The English Connection covers this fully and has excellent photographs of weapons, and most everything else that was shipped to the CSA. No one can give you an accurate value, or appraisal without seeing the gun, so for now it's worth what you paid for it.
 
Thank you very much for hour replies. Sorry for the delay in responding the replies. I had the page up after I posted and refreshed it a few times to see if anyone had responded but I didn't see any responses until I turned the computer off and back on later.

I'll post a full length shot and look for the add'l mark.

I understand that most of the Confederate Enfields from S H & Co. would have additional marks next to the Crown/SHG mark, JS and anchor being the main example I'm aware of, as well and inventory numbers would also be engraved. I have also read that this practice may have been discontinued because it was too time intensive. Does anyone have an opinion as to whether the lack of markings, in addition to the crown/shg mark, was because they have been sanded off or for some other reason?

Anyone know what the significance is of the 7 in the stock under the trigger guard?

I've included a picture of the lockplate internals (the hammer/trigger mechanism) and the missing mainspring and I believe the stirrup.

What are you looking for to see if a stock has been sanded?

I looked and can't believe that I don't have a good full length shot. I think I was having a hard time because the weapon is so **** long. (Imagine trying to clear a house or small space with one.) I'm posting pics that add up to a full length shot, plus a few extra shots, and will make another attempt to get a good full length picture asap.

Thank you all again very much for taking the time to read and reply to my post.

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You can forget about trying to find barrel bands for your rifle-musket. It was converted, presumably post-war, for use as a civilian hunting rifle by changing it so that it has ramrod thimbles and is pinned to the stock instead of using barrel bands. That explains why you couldn't remove the barrel when you tried, you must first drive out the pins that hold it to the stock. There is no point in trying to obtain barrel bands because the shoulders that the barrel bands would normally seat against have been sanded off during the conversion. You should just plan on leaving it as is.

I recently purchased an example that was modified in exactly the same way as this one. Here is a thread I started on it at the time because I wanted to get other opinions about the modification.

It is interesting that both of our rifles have Confederate markings. I will add additional photos of mine now that it is cleaned up to compare to yours. The conversion certainly hurts the value of it, but I think they are an interesting piece of Americana nonetheless. It is hard for me to fathom why anyone would have went to this much trouble to modify what was a perfectly usable rifle as is. I presume they were intended to be used as a shotgun or fowling piece, since the rear sight was removed, and the barrel bands passing over the top of the barrel would mess up the sight picture so maybe that is why they went to the trouble of removing them.

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Thanks for replies and the welcome.

There is one section on the forearm on the lockplate side that looked someone left a wet towel on or something and it changed the color of the stock, but it may have been a repair of some sort.

I'll check out the post on the similar Enfield, thank you for the info.

Since I have a clear line of sight down my barrel, but don't have a rear sight...
Does anyone make scope mounts for the p-53 Enfield? Red dot sights? What about conversion kits for hunting? To 12 gauge semi auto or pump conversion kits? No...? lol I used to to quite a bit of hunting: quail, ducks, doves, pheasants, geese. I guess I could see myself using my modified Enfield for ducks or geese... out there in a blind with my lab, my trusty p-1853 Enfield loaded with my favorite black powder duck load... But, what loads would I use for say... quail? Has anyone seen how fast quail take off and get behind a bush, tree, rock over a hill or behind any kind of cover? How in the heck am I supposed to shoulder my 50 inch limited "California Quail" edition shotgun conversion, move it fast enough to be able to lead a quail by ... how long does it take for the hammer to hit the cap, the cap to ignite the powder and so on able to lead etc... how many feet? And just one shot? When I was a kid, before my Dad bought be my first "real" shotgun, a 20 gauge Remington 1100 semi-auto, my Dad had me use a 410 bolt action shotgun for a short time. We get a covey up I'd shoot once, yank that bolt action back and forth as fast as I could and ... where did all the quail go?

Although, I guess if I was hungry enough, I'd get pretty good hunting with anything.

It is amazing how much the advances in technology have changed firearms and so many things in our lives, but I'd give anything to have once more chance to chase the quail up and down those hills all day, carrying that old 410, next to my Father.
 
In bright light, take a close look in the ramrod channel if the stock to see if there any other names stamped into the wood. I found two names in mine. If the channel is really dirty, you could use a Q-tip soaked in rubbing alcohol to gently clean out any grime ... this might reveal something. For half a year I could only see one name, the other was revealed after cleaning as I described.
 
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