I denounce you as a puppy and a scoundrel.

godofredus

Sergeant Major
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Location
Chicago
Where does he challenge him to a duel?


It is a little difficult to tell from the language of the Tennessee constitution if issuing a challenge was itself illegal. On the other hand, baiting the mayor to rise to challenge Forrest would immediately cost him (the Mayor's) his office. The Mayor didn't rise to the bait, keeping absolutely quiet.

Forrest knew (IMHO) what he was doing.

On the other hand, Barry, why did you post this article? Can you tell me?
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Pretty interesting to me to learn about Forrest's business ventures after the war. I'm glad the thread led in that direction.
 

godofredus

Sergeant Major
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Location
Chicago
I want to come back to Forrest's language as an attempt to provoke the Mayor into a duel - which would immediately cause him (the Mayor) to lose his office. Knowing Google is my friend try these:

Duels with Thomas Hart Benton[edit]
In August 1817 Lucas and Benton as attorneys were opposite sides of a court case and accused each other of lying.

When they encountered each other again in an August 1817 election, the 24-year-old Lucas challenged whether 35-year-old Benton owned property and could legally vote. Benton replied he owned slaves and paid taxes on them and could vote and then called Lucas according to one version an "insolent puppy." Another slightly different said Benton told the judges:

Gentlemen, if you have any questions to ask, I am prepared to answer, but I do not propose to answer charges made by any puppy who may happen to run across my path.
Lucas then challenged Benton on August 11 to a duel with a note:

I am informed you applied to me on the day of the election the epithet of 'Puppy.' If so I shall expect that satisfaction which is due from one gentleman to another for such an indignity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Lucas_(Missouri)

and listed in:
Uncle Tom Mania: Slavery, Minstrelsy, and Transatlantic Culture in the 1850s
By Sarah Meer p 174

and in the shooting Jefferson Davis vs Nelson
He lost him because the Indiana brigadier Jefferson Davis, home from the Transmississippi on a sick leave, had come down to ... and when Nelson called him an "insolent puppy,” flipped a wadded calling-card in his face; whereupon Nelson laid the back of a ... Buell had Davis placed in arrest, intending to try him for murder, but
before he could appoint a court or even prepare
The Civil War: A Narrative: Volume 1: Fort Sumter to Perryville
By Shelby Foote p. 714
I recall a few more but can't find them at the momment
 

Nathanb1

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Forum Host
Retired Moderator
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Smack dab in the heart of Texas
I would think the mayor was more worried about Forrest pulling out his pistol and unloading it on him than being called a puppy.

Unless he was already brain dead. :smile: I can't see a duel involved anywhere. Plenty of people were still dueling in one way or another (call it a shootout and give Marcellus Pointer a nod).
 

diane

Retired User
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Location
State of Jefferson
No, Forrest wasn't trying to provoke a fight and didn't expect the mayor to start one. Back well before the war something similar had occurred and dueling was more common if still illegal. As alderman, Forrest and the rest of the city council were inspecting some new work on a wharf. It was being alleged that the workmanship was so bad it would have to be redone. Forrest observed that he didn't see anything wrong with it. One of the contractor's rivals gently pulled Forrest aside and whispered that if he would go along with the rest of the council and condemn the structure, his brother would get the contract to redo it. Forrest would get the same nice fat wad of cash the others were getting. Immediately Forrest roared, "Do you take me for as great a rascal and scoundrel as yourself?!" Whole bushels of the contractor's dirty laundry got aired real fast! The smarmy crook wasn't going to fight even to defend himself. Forrest was pretty good at knowing who would fight and who would not.
 

godofredus

Sergeant Major
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Location
Chicago
No, Forrest wasn't trying to provoke a fight and didn't expect the mayor to start one. Back well before the war something similar had occurred and dueling was more common if still illegal. As alderman, Forrest and the rest of the city council were inspecting some new work on a wharf. It was being alleged that the workmanship was so bad it would have to be redone. Forrest observed that he didn't see anything wrong with it. One of the contractor's rivals gently pulled Forrest aside and whispered that if he would go along with the rest of the council and condemn the structure, his brother would get the contract to redo it. Forrest would get the same nice fat wad of cash the others were getting. Immediately Forrest roared, "Do you take me for as great a rascal and scoundrel as yourself?!" Whole bushels of the contractor's dirty laundry got aired real fast! The smarmy crook wasn't going to fight even to defend himself. Forrest was pretty good at knowing who would fight and who would not.

I respect your opinion Diane - you're saying that Forrest could unload whatever invective he wanted, including those words that would provoke any other man to a duel, knowing he could get away with it? As I pointed out "insolent puppy" were fighting words.....

As I said, I have very little respect for Forrest - great general but a miserable human being.
 

Nathanb1

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Forum Host
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Smack dab in the heart of Texas
I respect your opinion Diane - you're saying that Forrest could unload whatever invective he wanted, including those words that would provoke any other man to a duel, knowing he could get away with it? As I pointed out "insolent puppy" were fighting words.....

As I said, I have very little respect for Forrest - great general but a miserable human being.

Yes. In those days and times, a man stood up for himself. If he could make it stick, good for him. The problem with trying to put your thoughts on his actions is that he didn't have a computer to hide behind.

And I think it's pretty clear you don't like him. I'm not sure why you have to carefully include that statement in every post. We don't really care if you do or not--that's the thing. This is not a "Forrest worship" site--we said from the beginning we wanted warts and all. Sooooooooo....feel free to leave the invective out occasionally and get to the nitty gritty. Otherwise, it gets boring.
 

Barrycdog

Major
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Location
Buford, Georgia
Yes. In those days and times, a man stood up for himself. If he could make it stick, good for him. The problem with trying to put your thoughts on his actions is that he didn't have a computer to hide behind.

And I think it's pretty clear you don't like him. I'm not sure why you have to carefully include that statement in every post. We don't really care if you do or not--that's the thing. This is not a "Forrest worship" site--we said from the beginning we wanted warts and all. Sooooooooo....feel free to leave the invective out occasionally and get to the nitty gritty. Otherwise, it gets boring.

Who are you talking too ? Forrest Worship site? Have you noticed your avatar lately ?
 

diane

Retired User
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Location
State of Jefferson
I respect your opinion Diane - you're saying that Forrest could unload whatever invective he wanted, including those words that would provoke any other man to a duel, knowing he could get away with it? As I pointed out "insolent puppy" were fighting words.....

As I said, I have very little respect for Forrest - great general but a miserable human being.

I respect your feelings about Forrest - he's a very polarizing figure! And, you either like him...or you don't. :D That was true during his lifetime. No, Forrest didn't deliberately provoke a duel with somebody he knew would not fight him - to say so is to misunderstand the man. He had always an objective, and - although this may seem strange - he wished to fulfill that objective without violence. In the case of the mayor, he did not wish a reaction of any sort - duel or words or anything - because he wanted people to know what sort of fellow this guy was. I fulfilled my end of the bargain this person agreed to and he is robbing me. He has nothing to say to this insult on his honor. Do you want him as mayor?
 

Barrycdog

Major
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Location
Buford, Georgia
I'm not even going to repeat my explanation of my forum name, which I have done numerous times. Your mistake was even posting that comment.

My apologies. I was looking more at the name below the avatar. I also promised not to post in your forum but my post mysteriously drifted there.
 
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