I denounce you as a puppy and a scoundrel.

Barrycdog

Major
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Location
Buford, Georgia
Daily Intelligencer, Oct. 17, 1867 -- page 2.jpg


Daily Intelligencer, Oct. 17, 1867 -- page 2
 

godofredus

Sergeant Major
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Location
Chicago
So I can denounce Forrest as a murderer, a perjurer, a traitor, and a coward hiding behind a mask? Interesting quote, shows Forrest hadn't learned to control his temper in peacetime.

Besides which, unless Forrest was a total ignoramus and fool (which I doubt) he knew two things: first Tennessee banned dueling early on (Jackson had to go to Kentucky to fight his duels) plus Article IX of the 1835 constitution had the following:

Disqualifications
Article IX lists three groups of people who are barred from various privileges:

  • Ministers of any religion may not sit as legislators because they "ought not be diverted from the great duties of their functions." (Section 1)
  • Atheists may not perform any office in the government (Although Section 4 of Article I, banning any religious test for any "office of public trust" seemingly would make this hard to enforce) (Section 2)
  • Anyone having anything to do with a duel may not hold any "honor or profit" under the state's government and is liable to be punished otherwise (Section 3)
The exact wording is:

Disqualifications.
Section 3.
Any person who shall, after the adoption of this Constitution,
fight a duel, or knowingly be the bearer of a challenge to fight a duel, or send or
accept a challenge for that purpose, or be an aider or abettor in fighting a duel,
shall be deprived of the right to hold any office of honor or profit in this state,
and shall be punished otherwise, in such manner as the Legislature may pre-
scribe

It should be noted that the restrictions on ministers and atheists have been deemed to be unenforceable due to the interpretations of the Supreme Court of the United States with regard to the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

from: http://www.ask.com/wiki/Constitutio...oubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask.com#Disqualifications

So Forrest knew that the Mayor couldn't in affect, accept his challange.

It helps to do research. Of course I really dislike Forrest.
 
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
So I can denounce Forrest as a murderer, a perjurer, a traitor, and a coward hiding behind a mask? Interesting quote, shows Forrest hadn't learned to control his temper in peacetime.

Besides which, unless Forrest was a total ignoramus and fool (which I doubt) he knew two things: first Tennessee banned dueling early on (Jackson had to go to Kentucky to fight his duels) plus Article IX of the 1835 constitution had the following:
...
So Forrest knew that the Mayor couldn't in affect, accept his challange.

Where does he challenge him to a duel?
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
"I denounce you as a puppy" sounds like something out of Monty Python.:giggle:
It does sound that way to our ears. It makes me chuckle. But, obviously, it did not make the accused gentleman chuckle. I wonder which was worse: "puppy" or "scoundrel"? I think if Forrest could have gotten his wits about him on the spur of the moment, he might have come up with something a bit more biting than "puppy". But, of course, the world was a different place then. Nowadays, if someone called me a puppy, I'd probably say thank you. Back then, who knows?.......
 
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
It does sound that way to our ears. It makes me chuckle. But, obviously, it did not make the accused gentleman chuckle. I wonder which was worse: "puppy" or "scoundrel"? I think if Forrest could have gotten his wits about him on the spur of the moment, he might have come up with something a bit more biting than "puppy". But, of course, the world was a different place then. Nowadays, if someone called me a puppy, I'd probably say thank you. Back then, who knows?.......

Puppy as an insult goes at least back to Shakespeare. It meant facile, ineffectual...someone's lapdog. It seems to have been a favorite of Forrest.
 

Delhi Rangers

First Sergeant
Joined
Nov 1, 2011
Location
Alabama
Where does he challenge him to a duel?

Was wondering the same thing. Earl Van Dorn called Dr. Peters a d****d puppy shortly before the good doctor shot him in the back of the head in Spring Hill. We all know that story. I have been told that calling a man a "puppy" was in reference to his mother being a female dog. Like s** of a B***h. Could be wrong.
 

Billy Yank

First Sergeant
Joined
May 31, 2013
Location
Putnam County, IL
I like well contrived put-downs, especially those uttered by Winston Churchill, but in this particular diatribe, I really like when Forrest says, "I place the brand upon you, and you have to carry it." This would be a marvelous trailer to any standard denouncement.
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Puppy as an insult goes at least back to Shakespeare. It meant facile, ineffectual...someone's lapdog. It seems to have been a favorite of Forrest.
Yes, I know. We're referring to the lapdog that is totally needy, totally obedient to someone else, and who frequently gets excited and becomes incontinent. So I understand the insult, but it still makes me chuckle. That's because I tend to think of puppies as those adorable, fluffy, tail-wagging, slobbering, sacks of mush that make most people so darned happy nowadays. Obviously, I have difficulty seeing (or I should say "feeling") the insult in the times and relevance that it was thrown down. I am a victim of my own time in that regard.
 

diane

Retired User
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Location
State of Jefferson
"You lied, and you know it, you perjured scoundrel" were sufficient fightin' words! I'd like to see a little more on what this was about - I believe it may have been a bond deal to repair streets in Memphis and the city stiffed Forrest. Not sure! Forrest tried a number of business deals. Many of the towns along the route his railroad company proposed raised bonds then failed to honor them - but that was further along. Just a few months before, Forrest had sent a letter to Thomas on behalf of Lofland - and the mayor added one of his own - about the freedmen voting. Forrest mentioned a militant attitude among them and that many were armed to be sure they would vote and that the Irish immigrants in Memphis were riled up at them. Very strange! At any rate, he was giving Thomas a heads-up there was about to be mega-big race troubles in Memphis come voting time.

Forrest never did lick his temper. One man, after getting a blasting, exclaimed, "Good gracious, General, can you do nothing with that temper of yours?" "I'm dammed if I can," replied Forrest candidly! And, there was the cleaner who let rats get at Forrest's only good suit. He pulled his pistol and stuck it the man's face, "I ought to shoot you like a rat!" Needless to say, the poor man positively shriveled up into a tiny ball behind his counter. The following day Forrest returned and scared the man so badly he came near to fainting. Forrest was just there to apologize!
 
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
"You lied, and you know it, you perjured scoundrel" were sufficient fightin' words! I'd like to see a little more on what this was about - I believe it may have been a bond deal to repair streets in Memphis and the city stiffed Forrest. Not sure!

Yeah...this was over the paving contract. Forrest had completed quite a bit of the work and was paid in city bonds that were not worth what he had been promised. He lost a lot of money since he had paid for material and labor and he could get less than 50% the face value of the bonds in NY. He ultimately gave up the contract when the city refused to make different payment arrangements. This deal helped drive him to bankruptcy a little later.
 
Last edited:

diane

Retired User
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Location
State of Jefferson
Yeah...this was over the paving contract. Forrest had completed quite a bit of the work and was paid in city bonds that were not worth what he had been promised. He lost a lot of money since he had paid for material and labor and he could get less than 50% the face value of the bonds in NY. He ultimately gave up the contract when the city refused to make different payment arrangements. This deal helped drive him to bankruptcy a little later.

Thanks! I wasn't sure. He had been alderman four times there, too. Sometimes I get the creepy impression there was a conspiracy - not exactly a thought-out, well-organized one - but just a sort of mind-set to 'get' Forrest. It seemed every bright idea he had, every project he undertook, just about anything he tried - failed. Granted, Forrest no longer had slaves or his slave business, but still he had never failed so consistently or completely at any time in his life. Think he had help doing it!
 

diane

Retired User
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Location
State of Jefferson
Yes, I know. We're referring to the lapdog that is totally needy, totally obedient to someone else, and who frequently gets excited and becomes incontinent. So I understand the insult, but it still makes me chuckle. That's because I tend to think of puppies as those adorable, fluffy, tail-wagging, slobbering, sacks of mush that make most people so darned happy nowadays. Obviously, I have difficulty seeing (or I should say "feeling") the insult in the times and relevance that it was thrown down. I am a victim of my own time in that regard.

There's also another edge to 'puppy' as an insult. It referred to... ahem ... maturity. You, sir, do not have a pair! (Being called a puppy is what got Jefferson Davis in the mood to shoot somebody, by the way...)
 

W. Richardson

Captain
Joined
Jun 29, 2011
Location
Mt. Gilead, North Carolina
So I can denounce Forrest as a murderer, a perjurer, a traitor, and a coward hiding behind a mask? Interesting quote, shows Forrest hadn't learned to control his temper in peacetime.

Besides which, unless Forrest was a total ignoramus and fool (which I doubt) he knew two things: first Tennessee banned dueling early on (Jackson had to go to Kentucky to fight his duels) plus Article IX of the 1835 constitution had the following:

Disqualifications
Article IX lists three groups of people who are barred from various privileges:

  • Ministers of any religion may not sit as legislators because they "ought not be diverted from the great duties of their functions." (Section 1)
  • Atheists may not perform any office in the government (Although Section 4 of Article I, banning any religious test for any "office of public trust" seemingly would make this hard to enforce) (Section 2)
  • Anyone having anything to do with a duel may not hold any "honor or profit" under the state's government and is liable to be punished otherwise (Section 3)
The exact wording is:

Disqualifications.
Section 3.
Any person who shall, after the adoption of this Constitution,
fight a duel, or knowingly be the bearer of a challenge to fight a duel, or send or
accept a challenge for that purpose, or be an aider or abettor in fighting a duel,
shall be deprived of the right to hold any office of honor or profit in this state,
and shall be punished otherwise, in such manner as the Legislature may pre-
scribe

It should be noted that the restrictions on ministers and atheists have been deemed to be unenforceable due to the interpretations of the Supreme Court of the United States with regard to the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution.

from: http://www.ask.com/wiki/Constitutio...oubleDown&an=apn&ap=ask.com#Disqualifications

So Forrest knew that the Mayor couldn't in affect, accept his challange.

It helps to do research. Of course I really dislike Forrest.


lol...it's okay............I really dislike Lincoln.....:giggle:

Respectfully,

William
 
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
[QUOTE=" but still he had never failed so consistently or completely at any time in his life. Think he had help doing it![/QUOTE]

Forrest tended to ride a roller coaster both before and after the war in terms of business. He was involved in a huge number of endeavors and sometimes they paid off... For example at the same time he was involved in the paving deal he formed a construction company to extend the Memphis Little Rock RR from Madison Ark to Little Rock. He had political difficulty on both the paving and the RR project. Initially he had difficulty hiring black laborers for cutting through Crawley's Ridge because the Arkansas Freedman's Bureau did not trust him. He recruited several hundred Irishmen from Memphis to begin work and was later given permission to hire blacks. He worked the groups in competing gangs but paid the same wages to both. Although RC Brinkley brought Forrest into the project using George Peabody's money it also was funded by state RR bonds. Forrest was squeezed out of the next phase of the project and the military governor Clayton Powell played a role. However, Forrest did well on the first phase of the extension and made a profit. Also his railroad work resulted in the founding of the towns of Forrest City and Brinkley, Arkansas. It also helped open up Memphis to western trade.
 

diane

Retired User
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Location
State of Jefferson
He was a very ambitious man, that's true. He tried his hand at everything, as you say. His only military experience came with the war for Texas independence - there was an offer of some 3,000 acres free for 20 years to anyone who served. That was prime land in east Texas and Forrest decided to take a stab at it! He was a lieutenant of dragoons, I believe. But by the time the volunteers got there, it was all over and he had to thumb a ride back home via rail splitting and odd jobs.
 
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