Restricted How the North distorts Civil War History

CMWinkler

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By Hugh Howard July 10 at 8:09 PM
Hugh Howard is the author of “Houses of Civil War America.”

With astonishing speed — and a surprising new consensus — the status of the Confederate battle flag has been altered. While a reconsideration of that symbol’s original meaning is long overdue, there is a countervailing risk that the righteous satisfaction in some quarters at lowering the flag may blind us to another large misunderstanding of the past.

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...9b050aa_story.html?wpisrc=nl_opinions&wpmm=1h
 

Waterloo50

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By Hugh Howard July 10 at 8:09 PM
Hugh Howard is the author of “Houses of Civil War America.”

With astonishing speed — and a surprising new consensus — the status of the Confederate battle flag has been altered. While a reconsideration of that symbol’s original meaning is long overdue, there is a countervailing risk that the righteous satisfaction in some quarters at lowering the flag may blind us to another large misunderstanding of the past.

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...9b050aa_story.html?wpisrc=nl_opinions&wpmm=1h

CMWinkler,

That was an interesting article with plenty of food for thought. I hope it is resolved soon.

Waterloo
 

Waterloo50

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I wish I was a citizen of the USA because then I would be able to voice an opinion on why the Confederate Battle Flag should be allowed to fly, but I'm not, so I can't:thumbsup:
Waterloo
 

major bill

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There are some good points in the article, but also some unproven statements. For example the average Northerner did not have any abolitionist feelings. Some one must have believed in abolition n the North as the Northern states ended slavery in their states. The argument that they ended slavery because it was not profitable is a weak argument. It was possible to keep slavery legal in a state and let the slave owners in that state decide if it was profitable or practical to own slaves, while others who did not find owning slaves profitable could opt to stop owning slaves. Many Northern states adopted personal liberty laws that prevented the return of escaped slaves. This would lead me to believe that at lest some people in states that passed personal liberty laws did not support slavery. My home state of Michigan elected Zachariah Chandler one of the most vocal abolitionist in the United States Senate. I take many in his Senate district supported his violent anti slavery stance.
 

jgoodguy

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There are some good points in the article, but also some unproven statements. For example the average Northerner did not have any abolitionist feelings. Some one must have believed in abolition n the North as the Northern states ended slavery in their states. The argument that they ended slavery because it was not profitable is a weak argument. It was possible to keep slavery legal in a state and let the slave owners in that state decide if it was profitable or practical to own slaves, while others who did not find owning slaves profitable could opt to stop owning slaves. Many Northern states adopted personal liberty laws that prevented the return of escaped slaves. This would lead me to believe that at lest some people in states that passed personal liberty laws did not support slavery. My home state of Michigan elected Zachariah Chandler one of the most vocal abolitionist in the United States Senate. I take many in his Senate district supported his violent anti slavery stance.


I am not sure that was a great Northern affection for abolitionists, folks were burning or tossing their printing presses, rioting against them and burning meeting halls up to after the start of the war. Lincoln avoided official notice for a while too. A single radical republican does not a movement make. Most anti slavery sentiment was not abolitionist in nature assuming abortionist means something about human rights but economic-avoiding competition with slave labor.
 

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I am not sure that it merits straw man. I found the article too much of a ramble to have a recognizable argument.
The article is sounds like the author just wants to complain for complaining's sake, and that's fine. But hopefully it was in the reader editorial section of the paper. The parts of the arrival that are factual history are rather well understood by anyone with a decent understanding of the history.

Really, the north had slaves and was racist too?? I hadn't heard.

The revelations aren't really revelations and the rest is just unsupported and some unsupportable opinion. But if it made the writer felt happy to get it off his chest, it can't be that bad. Maybe someone will read it, look up the actual history and learn.
 

Waterloo50

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Sure you can! In fact, your opinion would be good because you have a very different perspective.
Hello Diane,
Sure you can! In fact, your opinion would be good because you have a very different perspective.
Hi diane,
'Is the Confederate Battle Flag a symbol of Heritage or Hate', that seems to be the main issue. Unfortunately the flag has been hijacked by those that wish to highlight the fact that racism and inequality still exists today. Its almost as if people are unable to debate racism without something tangible in front of them and unfortunately the Confederate Flag has become that tangible object. Forget the Confederate Battle Flag its not the issue, the real issue is racism and inequality as it is now. Nothing will change until the people of the United Sates find a way to sit and talk honestly about the reality of their situation . The whole debate over the Confederate Battle Flag is a smoke screen, stop focusing on the flag and focus on the real issues. My flag, the Union Jack is associated with slavery, but we still fly it with pride, the reason being is because we acknowledge that we can't alter the past but we understand that we can improve our future. We have not eradicated racism or discrimination but we face it head on. Anyone that lives in the UK recognises that we have legislated and outlawed racism and anyone seen to be racist is punished through law, no exceptions. Maybe that is why our flag can still stand. I read somewhere that you can't take the medication until you first admit you have the disease. I hope that the Confederate Battle Flag will one day be viewed for what it is, ' A historic and important symbol of a difficult past that finally enabled all the people of a Nation to talk to one another.

Kind Regards

Waterloo
 

major bill

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Although the Civil War ended 150 years ago the issue of the use of the CBF in the fight against integration and against Civil Rights for blacks only happened 50 years ago. We still have people that remember the 1960s and 1970s. The images of the fight against extending Civil Rights to blacks was on the TV news and was much imprinted in the minds of many people. These people associated the CBF with racism and taught their children that this is what the CBF stood for. When and even if this view of the CBF will change is unknown.
 

JPK Huson 1863

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Hello Diane,

Hi diane,
'Is the Confederate Battle Flag a symbol of Heritage or Hate', that seems to be the main issue. Unfortunately the flag has been hijacked by those that wish to highlight the fact that racism and inequality still exists today. Its almost as if people are unable to debate racism without something tangible in front of them and unfortunately the Confederate Flag has become that tangible object. Forget the Confederate Battle Flag its not the issue, the real issue is racism and inequality as it is now. Nothing will change until the people of the United Sates find a way to sit and talk honestly about the reality of their situation . The whole debate over the Confederate Battle Flag is a smoke screen, stop focusing on the flag and focus on the real issues. My flag, the Union Jack is associated with slavery, but we still fly it with pride, the reason being is because we acknowledge that we can't alter the past but we understand that we can improve our future. We have not eradicated racism or discrimination but we face it head on. Anyone that lives in the UK recognises that we have legislated and outlawed racism and anyone seen to be racist is punished through law, no exceptions. Maybe that is why our flag can still stand. I read somewhere that you can't take the medication until you first admit you have the disease. I hope that the Confederate Battle Flag will one day be viewed for what it is, ' A historic and important symbol of a difficult past that finally enabled all the people of a Nation to talk to one another.

Kind Regards

Waterloo


It was noticeable, the Brits' lack of prejudice. It just wasn't there. Lived there for 5 years- the only group noticeably viewed negatively maybe French, :D nothing to do with race. Small villages had a terrific mix too, much better than most small communities here, at least in PA. You can't say ' tolerant ' since that implies effort hence noticing differences. It didn't seem as if the flag conversation would have occurred there is the thing.

" A historic and important symbol of a difficult past that finally enabled all the people of a Nation to talk to one another. " Not sure this will happen in the near future? We seem to have cultivated many separate ideologies without deference to a unifying one any more- not sure how this happened. The UK would not be here had you folks allowed this- holding out as a teeny, little island against what amounted to evil hoards all those years ago? " 'We shall fight them on the beaches', talk about unified.

It will happen one day- we were talking about this a few days ago, my husband, mother and I. It may have to wait until the present generation goes to live forever on battlefields with their ancestors, if that's what Heaven is to them. Who knows? I'm guessing as years pass this fight will look more and more archaic to young eyes more interested in each other than past symbols even if some live in the South. Hate to be blasphemous but it's probably true.
 

jgoodguy

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Although the Civil War ended 150 years ago the issue of the use of the CBF in the fight against integration and against Civil Rights for blacks only happened 50 years ago. We still have people that remember the 1960s and 1970s. The images of the fight against extending Civil Rights to blacks was on the TV news and was much imprinted in the minds of many people. These people associated the CBF with racism and taught their children that this is what the CBF stood for. When and even if this view of the CBF will change is unknown.
It would be real interesting to find folks talking in 1950-1960s talking about the real confederancy
 

major bill

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By 1950 almost no one alive could talk about the real Civil War. What they talked about was a view of the Civil War as told by their parents or grand parents.
 

Waterloo50

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I wrote a post earlier today regarding racism and equality within the UK, later today whilst browsing Sky News reports, I was greeted with the headline 'Oxford Students want racist statue removed.' The report, some of which I have pasted below is a clear indication that the world is changing.

AAcRQCZ.jpg





A group of students at Oxford University has called for a statue to be taken down because it is claimed to symbolise racism and colonialism.

The statue of Cecil Rhodes - dubbed by some as the founding father of Apartheid - is more than 100 years old and sits in a Grade II listed building at Oriel College.

The group wants the university to follow the example of the University of Cape Town which pulled down its statue of the white supremacist in April.

Annie Teriba is member of Oxford University's Rhodes Must Fall movement. The second year history and politics student told Sky News the statue represents institutional racism.

"It's a reminder, more than being a statue, that when this university was built it wasn't built with us in mind it was built off the back of exploiting labour and the colonial project and it's something that still gets celebrated in the form of a statue. That's something that students of colour really take seriously.

"There's a violence to having to walk past the statue every day on the way to your lectures, there's a violence to having to sit with paintings of former slave holders whilst writing your exams - that's really problematic."

The difference here in the UK is that nobody will oppose the removal of our heritage, they wouldn't dare because they would be seen to be promoting racism. I don't agree with the removal of the statue and I know that to protest would fall on deaf ears. The question is where do you draw the line, one day its a flag or a 100 year old statue, where will it end? Think very carefully before you outlaw the Confederate Battle Flag.
 

John Winn

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I wrote a post earlier today regarding racism and equality within the UK, later today whilst browsing Sky News reports, I was greeted with the headline 'Oxford Students want racist statue removed.' The report, some of which I have pasted below is a clear indication that the world is changing.

AAcRQCZ.jpg





A group of students at Oxford University has called for a statue to be taken down because it is claimed to symbolise racism and colonialism.

The statue of Cecil Rhodes - dubbed by some as the founding father of Apartheid - is more than 100 years old and sits in a Grade II listed building at Oriel College.

The group wants the university to follow the example of the University of Cape Town which pulled down its statue of the white supremacist in April.

Annie Teriba is member of Oxford University's Rhodes Must Fall movement. The second year history and politics student told Sky News the statue represents institutional racism.

"It's a reminder, more than being a statue, that when this university was built it wasn't built with us in mind it was built off the back of exploiting labour and the colonial project and it's something that still gets celebrated in the form of a statue. That's something that students of colour really take seriously.

"There's a violence to having to walk past the statue every day on the way to your lectures, there's a violence to having to sit with paintings of former slave holders whilst writing your exams - that's really problematic."

The difference here in the UK is that nobody will oppose the removal of our heritage, they wouldn't dare because they would be seen to be promoting racism. I don't agree with the removal of the statue and I know that to protest would fall on deaf ears. The question is where do you draw the line, one day its a flag or a 100 year old statue, where will it end? Think very carefully before you outlaw the Confederate Battle Flag.

And then they'd have to re-name the Rhodes scholarships and scholars. Why aren't they attacking Winston Churchill too ? This type of "cleansing" is most tiresome. The past is what it is. Many in the past did not live by today's generally-accepted mores (surprise !). Get over it.
 

R. Alex Raines

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And then they'd have to re-name the Rhodes scholarships and scholars. Why aren't they attacking Winston Churchill too ? This type of "cleansing" is most tiresome. The past is what it is. Many in the past did not live by today's generally-accepted mores (surprise !). Get over it.
This is a false analogy, slippery slope, and a strawman all at once. Nicely done.
 
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