How Should the Confederacy be Remembered?

So were the women up to the 1900< and Blacks 1960. So what is your point?

This is the purpose of remembering the Confederates poorly, and why it is so important to remember them accurately. Treating the Confederates with disdain helps divert attention and blame away from the racists just above them. It appears many in the North were not, and are not, willing to share in much blame regarding the Civil War and racial inequality.
 
Factual arguments based on historical documents and original sources. Hollow emotions of modern historians acting like Sociologists is what I'm trying to avoid regarding this subject.
Lot to assert based on a fragment of a politician's speech. Change modern historiography off of a paragraph and your opinion.
 
Lot to assert based on a fragment of a politician's speech. Change modern historiography off of a paragraph and your opinion.

The search feature on this forum reveals dozens if not hundreds of quotes I have used, I'm not going to post them all in one post. I gave the evidence and the reference. The Republicans political motivation before the War is a critical component in how the Confederates should be remembered.
 
No, apparently I can't, not without attracting a lot of comments saying that I am wrong in what I believe/remember.

On the other hand, I am frequently told about the "cause" of the SCV and what it means in what the Confederacy fought for, and then I have actual, historical fact. The two are in conflict and I cannot bring myself to "remember" one way at the expense of actual history.

In my belief, it is alright to honor one's ancestors, for their courage and bravery and their loyalty to their comrades. I have stood at the Angle where my great-great-grandfather of the 19th Virginia was captured at Gettysburg. I cannot doubt his courage and I honor him for it.

But will not force my remembering of him to twist the basic, underlying cause he fought for, I will not be loyal to his mistake in owning slaves and fighting to preserve slavery.

I believe he would not want me to do such nor can I ignore the main issue of the early and middle 19th century of which all were aware before the first gun was fired on Ft. Sumter, the issue of slavery.

We cannot ignore or hide THE issue of that time, anymore than we can hide or ignore terrorism of our own time.

I cannot accept the idea of the wrong rememberance of the Civil War. No worthwhile lesson can be drawn from such, hence the constant conflict with others who would remember as you do. History, real, factual history, cannot be shaped into one's own, personal agenda, not if you share such with others. For when you do such, you are encouraging others to believe as you believe, further twisting history in personal myth, instead of a valuable tool to teach others not to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Unionblue
I think I have a pretty firm grasp of the factual history after having studied it my entire life and having been published.

As your ancestor slugged it out and was captured at the Angle in Gettysburg, my GGGrandfather was in the 4th VA Inf, Stonewall Brigade attempting to capture Culp's Hill. And I too have climbed that hill and seen the place where my grandfather was shot just down the line from where your grandfather was captured. My grandfather was from an area where there were very few slaves in an area far removed from any plantations. In fact, it is possible that he had never even seen a black person in his life prior to joining the army. So you expect me, or anyone else for that matter, to believe that my grandfather joined the army to preserve slavery? Even if he had never even seen a slave must less owned one? You can quote or copy and paste secession papers from here to eternity and it will matter not one bit. The fact is that the majority of southern soldiers did not own a slave and they certainly were not going to endure the hell on earth that they did so that some wealthy guy, who they did not know, could have the right to own a slave. They could care less what some fire eater wrote down on a piece of paper at the state capitol.

What you are doing is encouraging others to believe that the cause of the war can be wrapped and neatly packaged inside of a little box where everything is black and white and any fool can understand. And IMO that is a huge disservice and mistake and is outright wrong. The war was 60 years in the making as blow after blow fell over several decades which drove the two sides further and further apart. It is an extremely complex topic and there is no way we can simply put a label on that little box with the words "slavery" on it and call it a day. I don't believe it is I who is doing the twisting...
 
I think I have a pretty firm grasp of the factual history after having studied it my entire life and having been published.

As your ancestor slugged it out and was captured at the Angle in Gettysburg, my GGGrandfather was in the 4th VA Inf, Stonewall Brigade attempting to capture Culp's Hill. And I too have climbed that hill and seen the place where my grandfather was shot just down the line from where your grandfather was captured. My grandfather was from an area where there were very few slaves in an area far removed from any plantations. In fact, it is possible that he had never even seen a black person in his life prior to joining the army. So you expect me, or anyone else for that matter, to believe that my grandfather joined the army to preserve slavery? Even if he had never even seen a slave must less owned one? You can quote or copy and paste secession papers from here to eternity and it will matter not one bit. The fact is that the majority of southern soldiers did not own a slave and they certainly were not going to endure the hell on earth that they did so that some wealthy guy, who they did not know, could have the right to own a slave. They could care less what some fire eater wrote down on a piece of paper at the state capitol.

What you are doing is encouraging others to believe that the cause of the war can be wrapped and neatly packaged inside of a little box where everything is black and white and any fool can understand. And IMO that is a huge disservice and mistake and is outright wrong. The war was 60 years in the making as blow after blow fell over several decades which drove the two sides further and further apart. It is an extremely complex topic and there is no way we can simply put a label on that little box with the words "slavery" on it and call it a day. I don't believe it is I who is doing the twisting...

You confuse individual motivations to join with the confederacy's goals. I fail to see how one honors their ancestors by claiming they were total idiots who had no idea what the confederacy's goals were.
 
So were the women up to the 1900< and Blacks 1960. So what is your point?

LOL. Of course you are not going to "get" my point: you have taken a snippet of conversation and omitted that which I was responding to. This methodology would render just about anything pointless. LOL
 
For some it was a bayonet due to conscription. I had a Grandfather who hid in the woods for months trying to avoid it. Story is his family would take him down supplies weekly as he hid out. Now why he was doing that I don't have any record of. Could be fear, morality, etc. no idea. He eventually did have to join and was in for about a year.
 
The search feature on this forum reveals dozens if not hundreds of quotes I have used, I'm not going to post them all in one post. I gave the evidence and the reference. The Republicans political motivation before the War is a critical component in how the Confederates should be remembered.
So the Republicans took advantage of the Northern opposition to the Southern Slave holders.
You have a couple hundred posts. I see nothing but opinions with the occasional out of context quote maybe 5 quotes in total. Perhaps you can provide links in support of your assertion above.
 
For some it was a bayonet due to conscription. I had a Grandfather who hid in the woods for months trying to avoid it. Story is his family would take him down supplies weekly as he hid out. Now why he was doing that I don't have any record of. Could be fear, morality, etc. no idea. He eventually did have to join and was in for about a year.
I had ancestors that hid out in the piney woods to avoid conscription.
 
I think I have a pretty firm grasp of the factual history after having studied it my entire life and having been published.

As your ancestor slugged it out and was captured at the Angle in Gettysburg, my GGGrandfather was in the 4th VA Inf, Stonewall Brigade attempting to capture Culp's Hill. And I too have climbed that hill and seen the place where my grandfather was shot just down the line from where your grandfather was captured. My grandfather was from an area where there were very few slaves in an area far removed from any plantations. In fact, it is possible that he had never even seen a black person in his life prior to joining the army. So you expect me, or anyone else for that matter, to believe that my grandfather joined the army to preserve slavery? Even if he had never even seen a slave must less owned one? You can quote or copy and paste secession papers from here to eternity and it will matter not one bit. The fact is that the majority of southern soldiers did not own a slave and they certainly were not going to endure the hell on earth that they did so that some wealthy guy, who they did not know, could have the right to own a slave. They could care less what some fire eater wrote down on a piece of paper at the state capitol.

What you are doing is encouraging others to believe that the cause of the war can be wrapped and neatly packaged inside of a little box where everything is black and white and any fool can understand. And IMO that is a huge disservice and mistake and is outright wrong. The war was 60 years in the making as blow after blow fell over several decades which drove the two sides further and further apart. It is an extremely complex topic and there is no way we can simply put a label on that little box with the words "slavery" on it and call it a day. I don't believe it is I who is doing the twisting...
Did your ancestor leave any written record? If not, you are projecting your opinions backwards in time on him. Your modern sensibilities on him.
 
So the Republicans took advantage of the Northern opposition to the Southern Slave holders.
You have a couple hundred posts. I see nothing but opinions with the occasional out of context quote maybe 5 quotes in total. Perhaps you can provide links in support of your assertion above.

What are you asking? You only found 5 quotes, that is laughably impossible.
 
If possible, it would be enlightening to see examples of the errors that Dr. Hunter pointed out. Other than the obvious disagreement over the reason for secession. It is impossible to dispute his loyalty to the Confederacy and his reputation as Stonewall's physician.

A short biography: https://ehistory.osu.edu/exhibitions/cwsurgeon/cwsurgeon/mcguire

Such a man was Hunter Holmes McGuire, a native of Winchester, Virginia in the Northern end of the Shenandoah Valley. Born on October 11, 1835, at age 22 he was already a professor and full doctor. An impressive man, tall -- almost 6'4" -- thin, and handsome with black hair and blue eyes, Dr. McGuire was a believer in State's Rights and Virginia and thus embarked on a career as a Confederate Medical Officer in 1861.

McGuire saw many tragedies in his career as a medical officer for the dying Confederacy. His good friend and commander Jackson died. His tent-mate Sandie Pendelton was mortally wounded in the Valley in 1864. McGuire's own brother Hugh was mortally wounded in 1865. His beloved home the Shenandoah Valley was in flames. And McGuire himself was captured at Waynesboro on March 2nd. Paroled by General Sheridan for his policy of not keeping Union Surgeons, McGuire was with the Army of Northern Virginia and tasted the bitter defeat of surrender at Appomattox Court House.​

We have had a thread that touched on this subject about Mildred Lewis Rutherford
Mildred Lewis Rutherford, Historian General of The Daughters of The Confederacy where her undying objectivity and devotion to the truth was noted.
 
What are you asking? You only found 5 quotes, that is laughably impossible.

I believe he is asking, instead of sending us on a snipe hunt looking for evidence to support your position, that you provide it yourself. Of course you could just blame everything on McPherson and leave it at that, bet I could find more than 5 of those quotes.
 
I believe he is asking, instead of sending us on a snipe hunt looking for evidence to support your position, that you provide it yourself. Of course you could just blame everything on McPherson and leave it at that, bet I could find more than 5 of those quotes.

Yet, I already did provide evidence for my position in my first post with my comment in regards to Senator Mason. Are we all attaching multiple references to everything we say here? I just looked in this thread and no else is, so why must I? Am I not a member who joined this forum before most everyone posting in this thread?

Read Judah Benjamin's speeches before the War and you will have your answer.


“The wrongs under which the South is now suffering, and for which she seeks redress, seem to arise chiefly from a difference in our construction of the Constitution. You, Senators of the Republican party, assert, and your people whom you represent assert, that, under a just and fair interpretation of the Federal Constitution, it is right that you deny that our slaves, which directly and indirectly involve a value of more than four thousand million dollars, are property at all, or entitled to protection in Territories owned by the common Government. You assume the interpretation that it is right to encourage, by all possible means, directly and indirectly, the robbery of this property and to legislate so as to render its recovery as difficult and dangerous as possible; that it is right and proper and justifiable, under the Constitution, to prevent our mere transit across a sister State, to embark with our property on a lawful voyage, without being openly despoiled of it.”

Judah P. Benjamin, Senator (D) Louisiana

You Never Can Subjugate Us, United States Senate, December 31, 1860
http://civilwarcauses.org/judah.htm


“What may be the fate of this horrible contest, no man can tell, none pretend to foresee; but this much I will say: the fortunes of war may be adverse to our arms; you may carry desolation into our peaceful land, and with torch and fire you may set our cities in flames; you may even emulate the atrocities of those who, in the war of the Revolution, hounded on the blood-thirsty savage to attack upon the defenceless frontier; you may under the protection of your advancing armies, give shelter to the furious fanatics who desire, and profess to desire, nothing more than to add all the horrors of a servile insurrection to the calamities of civil war; you may do all this---and more, too, if more there be---but you never can subjugate us; you never can convert the free sons of the soil into vassals, paying tribute to your power; and you never, never can degrade them to the level of an inferior and servile race. Never! Never!”

Judah P. Benjamin, Senator (D) Louisiana
You Never Can Subjugate Us, United States Senate, December 31, 1860

http://civilwarcauses.org/judah.htm

I cannot make it anymore clear than that.
 
Yet, I already did provide evidence for my position in my first post with my comment in regards to Senator Mason. Are we all attaching multiple references to everything we say here? I just looked in this thread and no else is, so why must I? Am I not a member who joined this forum before most everyone posting in this thread?

Read Judah Benjamin's speeches before the War and you will have your answer.


“The wrongs under which the South is now suffering, and for which she seeks redress, seem to arise chiefly from a difference in our construction of the Constitution. You, Senators of the Republican party, assert, and your people whom you represent assert, that, under a just and fair interpretation of the Federal Constitution, it is right that you deny that our slaves, which directly and indirectly involve a value of more than four thousand million dollars, are property at all, or entitled to protection in Territories owned by the common Government. You assume the interpretation that it is right to encourage, by all possible means, directly and indirectly, the robbery of this property and to legislate so as to render its recovery as difficult and dangerous as possible; that it is right and proper and justifiable, under the Constitution, to prevent our mere transit across a sister State, to embark with our property on a lawful voyage, without being openly despoiled of it.”

Judah P. Benjamin, Senator (D) Louisiana

You Never Can Subjugate Us, United States Senate, December 31, 1860
http://civilwarcauses.org/judah.htm


“What may be the fate of this horrible contest, no man can tell, none pretend to foresee; but this much I will say: the fortunes of war may be adverse to our arms; you may carry desolation into our peaceful land, and with torch and fire you may set our cities in flames; you may even emulate the atrocities of those who, in the war of the Revolution, hounded on the blood-thirsty savage to attack upon the defenceless frontier; you may under the protection of your advancing armies, give shelter to the furious fanatics who desire, and profess to desire, nothing more than to add all the horrors of a servile insurrection to the calamities of civil war; you may do all this---and more, too, if more there be---but you never can subjugate us; you never can convert the free sons of the soil into vassals, paying tribute to your power; and you never, never can degrade them to the level of an inferior and servile race. Never! Never!”

Judah P. Benjamin, Senator (D) Louisiana
You Never Can Subjugate Us, United States Senate, December 31, 1860

http://civilwarcauses.org/judah.htm

I cannot make it anymore clear than that.
Aint't no one making you play.

More politicians ramblings. Judah P. Benjamin was CSA Secretary of State. Please explain what exactly are you asserting.
 
LOL. Of course you are not going to "get" my point: you have taken a snippet of conversation and omitted that which I was responding to. This methodology would render just about anything pointless. LOL
I figured there was no point. :giggle:
 
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Aint't no one making you play.

More politicians ramblings. Judah P. Benjamin was CSA Secretary of State. Please explain what exactly are you asserting.

I already played, I would like to see some evidence from you that what I said was incorrect. Protecting the power and wealth they already had goes well beyond protecting slavery. Do you have evidence that the Southern Democrats did not feel they were being robbed of their power and wealth by greedy Republicans?
 
LOL. Of course you are not going to "get" my point: you have taken a snippet of conversation and omitted that which I was responding to. This methodology would render just about anything pointless. LOL
I figured there was no point. :giggle:

I may be paranoid, but lets play nice, please. Not that I see anything wrong, but sometimes with mere rhetoric, folks get overly excited.
Thanks
 
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