Restricted Hot Springs' Daughters of Confederacy put 'Battle Flag' up after taking it down in 2017

JonnyReb_In_MI

Corporal
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Location
Southeast Michigan
It's about rubbing elbows together in an increasingly small, crowded world. We're not very good at it, ' rights ' frequently interpreted as ' I got mine, to heck with you '. I wish it were possible to acknowledge each other, open minds far enough to allow a glimmer of understanding and go from there.

Anyone interpreting what I just said as being anti-flag wasn't listening. It's not anti anything, it's pro-peace.

I get it, and I want to have friendly relations with anyone any everyone, but I'm not going to take my flag down because someone misunderstands it as a symbol of slavery/racism.

I know, I know... the meaning of symbols are open to interpretation by both those those who use them and those who view them, and people certainly have the right to view the CSA flag, or any other symbol of any nation that ever existed, in any way they choose. It's certainly possible that some might view the the United States flag in the same way.

For southerners, it would not be entirely preposterous to view the United States flag as a symbol of tyranny, invasion, subjection, raping, pillaging, plundering, burning cities and small towns, murdering innocent women, children, and old men... all during the War Between the States. It's also the official flag of the KKK, the flag of slave ships, the flag of Japanese interment camps during WWII, the flag of segregation in both the south (after the war) and in north (before and after the war), the Trail of Tears, the Wounded Knee massacre, slavery in the entire nation prior to 1866 ... the list could go on and on about atrocities committed under the old Stars & Stripes.

While one could choose to look at the United States flag from a negative and hate filled perspective, I would encourage everyone to not do so, and instead celebrate the positives while acknowledging the reality of the negatives. Why can't others just have this same attitude regarding Confederate flags? Oh, I know why... because some people profit by having us divided & at each others throats over piddly little things such as pieces of cloth flapping in the wind.
 

Belle Montgomery

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Location
44022
I get it, and I want to have friendly relations with anyone any everyone, but I'm not going to take my flag down because someone misunderstands it as a symbol of slavery/racism.

I know, I know... the meaning of symbols are open to interpretation by both those those who use them and those who view them, and people certainly have the right to view the CSA flag, or any other symbol of any nation that ever existed, in any way they choose. It's certainly possible that some might view the the United States flag in the same way.

For southerners, it would not be entirely preposterous to view the United States flag as a symbol of tyranny, invasion, subjection, raping, pillaging, plundering, burning cities and small towns, murdering innocent women, children, and old men... all during the War Between the States. It's also the official flag of the KKK, the flag of slave ships, the flag of Japanese interment camps during WWII, the flag of segregation in both the south (after the war) and in north (before and after the war), the Trail of Tears, the Wounded Knee massacre, slavery in the entire nation prior to 1866 ... the list could go on and on about atrocities committed under the old Stars & Stripes.

While one could choose to look at the United States flag from a negative and hate filled perspective, I would encourage everyone to not do so, and instead celebrate the positives while acknowledging the reality of the negatives. Why can't others just have this same attitude regarding Confederate flags? Oh, I know why... because some people profit by having us divided & at each others throats over piddly little things such as pieces of cloth flapping in the wind.
Bravo! Well said!
 

Andersonh1

Brigadier General
Moderator
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Location
South Carolina
I get it, and I want to have friendly relations with anyone any everyone, but I'm not going to take my flag down because someone misunderstands it as a symbol of slavery/racism.

I know, I know... the meaning of symbols are open to interpretation by both those those who use them and those who view them, and people certainly have the right to view the CSA flag, or any other symbol of any nation that ever existed, in any way they choose. It's certainly possible that some might view the the United States flag in the same way.

For southerners, it would not be entirely preposterous to view the United States flag as a symbol of tyranny, invasion, subjection, raping, pillaging, plundering, burning cities and small towns, murdering innocent women, children, and old men... all during the War Between the States. It's also the official flag of the KKK, the flag of slave ships, the flag of Japanese interment camps during WWII, the flag of segregation in both the south (after the war) and in north (before and after the war), the Trail of Tears, the Wounded Knee massacre, slavery in the entire nation prior to 1866 ... the list could go on and on about atrocities committed under the old Stars & Stripes.

While one could choose to look at the United States flag from a negative and hate filled perspective, I would encourage everyone to not do so, and instead celebrate the positives while acknowledging the reality of the negatives. Why can't others just have this same attitude regarding Confederate flags? Oh, I know why... because some people profit by having us divided & at each others throats over piddly little things such as pieces of cloth flapping in the wind.

You're exactly right.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
You're exactly right.


Tis odd, cant but help notice the ones who say "Cant we all get along" usually mean "we will get along if you bow to my every whim", because they aren't going to put any effort into respecting others wishes or they wouldn't be complaining about their neighbors doing what they are entirely within their rights to do...….
 
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JonnyReb_In_MI

Corporal
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Location
Southeast Michigan
Tis odd, cant but help notice the ones who say "Cant we all get along" usually mean "we will get along if you bow to my every whim", because they aren't going to put any effort into respecting others wishes or they wouldn't be complaining about their neighbors doing what they are entirely within their rights to do...….

That usually is the case, but all I'm saying is "cant we all get along without tearing anything down?"
 

MattL

Guest
Joined
Aug 20, 2015
Location
SF Bay Area
"One of the reasons they cite in the petition is tourism and it's probably valid."
Really? I would hope that those who choose to "tour" anywhere in Texas know ahead of time they're in a previous Confederate state.

To clarify the article you linked is about Hot Springs, Arkansas, not Texas. Though yes I imagine people are fully aware Arkansas was in the Confederacy 150 years ago.

What's next...remove horses and cattle because some city slicker whose "touring" is offended seeing manure in a pasture or the odor of livestock while touring a ranch?

Maybe. Plus I imagine if cattle were in a plaza in the center of downtown they probably would have already moved the cattle.

That all depends on whether tourism is a focus for a city or town and what type of tourists they are attracting. To be clear I didn't make the petition and I am not advocating whether or not Hot Springs, AR should be a tourism focused city or not.

What I will say is that business and industries have come and gone, risen and fallen (such as the decline of King Cotton for example). Many towns or cities that have faced a declining economy and jobs due to changing times often approach increasing their tourism. Tourism can be an invaluable source of business that can bring much needed business to help the economy of the town, provide jobs, and diversify the economic stability. That of course is a choice of the city/town and is not the best option for every city. Usually that location will do things to make their place more appealing for tourists in whatever way make sense. Like cleaning up their downtown etc.

Tourism also brings an added benefit beyond just more business, it brings externally supported tax revenue. Taxes that go towards local and State supported works like public education, police, firefighting, things like public works such as roads, utilities, etc. I lived in Las Vegas for a year, my company relocated there from Eugene, Oregon (yeah and odd jump lol, due to a new CEO who was located there). Nevada gets such much tourism from Vegas and Reno that they don't have State income tax. The tourists pay enough to cover it. This gives employers and citizens a huge advantage where people can put more money in their pockets usually on both ends and encourages business expansion.

So though I don't think tourism should be the focus of everywhere it certainly can be a valuable thing that directly effects the qualify of life of the citizens there. In that case I can understand having a concern for a CBF in a high pole in the downtown. That might drive tourism away if you're looking for a broad audience. The reality is things come in and go out of style, not just symbols. If you are running a business then it's now about being able to express your pride and heritage on a high pole in your downtown, but how to better increase the quality of life of you and your workers and if that's tourism those things matter.

Clearly it's private property, they can do what they want, but there's nothing wrong with a request for a change and I think tourism could indeed be a valid point if that's a focus of the city.
 

JPK Huson 1863

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Location
Central Pennsylvania
some people profit by having us divided

It's unfortunate but true. If we're all screaming at each other, easy for the not-at-all divided faction ( laughing up their sleeves ) to smoke and mirror their way to owning all of us. Despite my post making it clear ' peace ' was the objective, it got interpreted ( not in your post ) as a Yankee once again attacking the flag ( hence the entire South ). I'm ignoring the op to become embattled on the topic. Exhausting and annoying, being called on to make disclaimers so will not. You've made your points without resorting to high energy vitriol, an excellent beginning. It can be done.

It's not Pollyanna to feel just, plain listening to each other ( I did say each other ) is the only way we're going to end the screaming- really, genuinely listening to each other as opposed to waiting for the other guy to stop talking, so one's opinion can be aired. That'll be scoffed at, can't do a thing about that. The single, other option is where it stands, with animosities growing tentacles of division. And more screaming.
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Honored Fallen Comrade
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Tis odd, cant but help notice the ones who say "Cant we all get along" usually mean "we will get along if you bow to my every whim", because they aren't going to put any effort into respecting others wishes or they wouldn't be complaining about their neighbors doing what they are entirely within their rights to do...….

Unfortunately, too often true.
 

Philip Leigh

formerly Harvey Johnson
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Asking someone to remove something or do something to lessen or remove a negative impact on others is not telling then what they can fly on their property.

But telling anyone what they can do with their own property is likely to have a "negative impact" on property owners. LOL

Just like if I go to a neighbor and ask them to turn their music down doesn't mean I'm telling them whether they can play music or not.

Inapplicable to a binary choice of either flying the flag, or not flying it.
Additionally making a request regarding a very large flag pole in town square isn't micro managing.

This is private property, not a town square.
 
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MattL

Guest
Joined
Aug 20, 2015
Location
SF Bay Area
But telling anyone what they can do with their own property is likely to have a "negative impact" on property owners. LOL

Asking is not telling. I can go to my neighbor and ask for them to turn their music down, I can ask them for a cup of sugar. It's the basis of civilization, making requests and cooperation.

It fits your narrative better if you change the word from ask or request to "tell" though.

Inapplicable to a binary choice of either flying the flag, or not flying it.

Uhh...

A) turn your music down
B) not turn your music down

It's a binary choice too. What about asking for a cup of sugar? Another binary choice. I guess you are against those too.


This is private property, not a town square.

This is private property in a town square. Did you not bother to read the article or research the matter before commenting? I read the article, I looked up the monument, I looked up photos of the monument and hopped on google street view to see it for myself, then I commented.

Here are screen caps from the video in the article.

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 11.00.38 PM.jpg Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 11.00.51 PM.jpg

Here's the wikipedia article on it

if you want to find it on google maps it's across the street from the Landmark Building so search for "landmark building hot springs arkansas"

Screen Shot 2018-10-06 at 11.06.02 PM.jpg
 

Tin cup

Captain
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Location
Texas
I'm always amazed that someone flying a Confederate flag is considered newsworthy. It is the south, it's a part of the culture. Nothing unusual to see here.
It amazes me why so many feel the need to fly a flag that represents soldiers fighting to break up the Union, to gain independence, to perpetuate slavery forever, and be SO proud of it! Some "culture", eh?

Kevin Dally
 

Andersonh1

Brigadier General
Moderator
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Location
South Carolina
It amazes me why so many feel the need to fly a flag that represents soldiers fighting to break up the Union, to gain independence, to perpetuate slavery forever, and be SO proud of it! Some "culture", eh?

Kevin Dally

You don't understand our mindset or our reasons, that much is clear. :smile:

I've said it many times, there's much more to the flag than the picture you paint here.
 

Tin cup

Captain
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Location
Texas
You don't understand our mindset or our reasons, that much is clear. :smile:

I've said it many times, there's much more to the flag than the picture you paint here.
When you break it down, the picture I have is a correct, and truthful one. I stopped trying to mask over what the confederacy was all about years ago.:smile coffee:

Kevin Dally
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Honored Fallen Comrade
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
It amazes me why so many feel the need to fly a flag that represents soldiers fighting to break up the Union, to gain independence, to perpetuate slavery forever, and be SO proud of it! Some "culture", eh?

Kevin Dally

Kinda reminds you of US history in general – “some culture eh”?
 

Tin cup

Captain
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Location
Texas
Kinda reminds you of US history in general – “some culture eh”?
Unlike the CSA, and the CBF that goes with it, the US history shows that it ended slavery, and preserved the Union, that those who fought under the CBF for the CSA, tried to break up. The US was moving forward, the CSA was trying to keep the status quo.

It's not a perfect history, but we can thank God the CSA failed! That is why we have no need to flaunt a flag of failure.

Kevin Dally
 

Stone in the wall

2nd Lieutenant
Asst. Regtl. Quartermaster Antietam 2021
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Location
Blue Ridge Mountains, Jefferson County WV
Unlike the CSA, and the CBF that goes with it, the US history shows that it ended slavery, and preserved the Union, that those who fought under the CBF for the CSA, tried to break up. The US was moving forward, the CSA was trying to keep the status quo.

It's not a perfect history, but we can thank God the CSA failed! That is why we have no need to flaunt a flag of failure.

Kevin Dally
Delaware- 1860 census shows almost 1,800 slaves. Rejected 13th and 14th amendments. Had Jim crow laws 1875.
 

Tin cup

Captain
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Location
Texas
Delaware- 1860 census shows almost 1,800 slaves. Rejected 13th and 14th amendments. Had Jim crow laws 1875.
Not sure what you point exactly is, Delaware didn't illegally secede and fight to try to break up the Country for for slavery. Those folk who followed the CBF in battle...did!

Kevin Dally
 
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