Restricted Honoring Ancestors: From Rise and Fall of the Lost Cause view

byron ed

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Mar 22, 2017
Location
Midwest
Why edit your post, & not just make another reply..? Makes it harder to follow, just saying...

You're just been to quick for me to get my edits in. But you make a good point, I'll try to do better.

I would say... that is YOUR view, & the view of those how hate the CBF.

Not my view. I like the CBF symbol. I think it's a great artifact of the Civil War. In honors the ANV for its dedication and battle-savvy in that war.

I feel bad for what happened to the symbol after the war.
 
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byron ed

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Location
Midwest
Here's the CBF having no connection to the KKK over our lifetimes
Untitled-22.jpg
 
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byron ed

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Location
Midwest
As an occasionally galvanized Confederate myself, I've always like the Bonnie Blue flag. The Lost Cause never managed to get its hooks on that one, and there's a great tune associated with it to boot.

BBF.jpg
 
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maximus_flavius

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Joined
Jan 1, 2018
No more a connection than the US flag. I notice you never addressed that point.

Or the cross, or white bed sheets.

So I have 3/4 of what the Klan regularly uses at my house (US flag, white sheets, & a cross). Does that make me a Klan member?

I'd also point out plenty of Confederates didn't fight to maintain slavery, they fought because they were invaded, or genuinely believed in states rights (but not necessarily slavery). Not every Yankee believed in the end of slavery, & the majority were pretty rank racist (judging by today's standards).

It's all such a large, complex, convoluted mess, & then people try to throw in modern morality. People & society were entirely different 150 years ago.

& that's funny stuff about Robert Byrd. When people start complaining & tearing down buildings named after him, then I may start to take them serious.

Sometimes politics make people choose 1 of 2 sides, & neither is good.
 

byron ed

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Location
Midwest
No more a connection than the US flag. I notice you never addressed that point.

What it comes down to is that the CBF symbol is damaged goods. We're genuinely sorry about that. It's not so much anybody's opinion or what they wanted to happen as it is simple reality.

It's sort of like "take off the blinders." No matter what somebody wants the CBF symbol to be, no matter how hard somebody works at reversing or replacing its dark side associations, it remains a symbol of life under slavery, the Lost Cause, the KKK, and racism. It can't be helped, the bias against the CBF symbol cannot be overcome. It's water past the bridge, the horse out of the barn.

If -- big If -- somebody actually, realistically and practically wanted to promote the honorable Southern legacy, of which there is much, they would cut losses and choose another symbol instead of wasting so much breath (and spit) defending a symbol so hopelessly damaged in the unfortunate twist of history; an otherwise fine symbol permanently besmirched.
 
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Viper21

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What it comes down to is that the CBF symbol is damaged goods. Really sorry about that, but it's not so much anybody's opinion or what they wanted to happen as it is simple reality.

Let's take off the blinders. No matter what somebody wants the CBF symbol to be, no matter how hard somebody works at reversing or replacing its dark side associations, it remains a symbol of life under slavery, the Lost Cause, the KKK, and racism. It can't be helped. The bias against the CBF symbol cannot be overcome. It's water past the bridge, the horse out of the barn.

On the other hand, if somebody was actually, realistically and practically interested in promoting the honorable Southern legacy, of which there is much, they would cut losses and choose another symbol instead of agonizing and fighting over a symbol unfortunately and hopelessly damaged in the unfortunate twists of history, an otherwise fine symbol besmirched.
It's absolutely opinion. Yours, & admittedly, plenty of others who dislike the CBF. Just because a lie is repeated doesn't ever make it true. Something that plenty accuse "lost cause'ers" of. I get all that, I do.

My contention is, that just because the KKK has used the the CBF before doesn't make the CBF a symbol of the Klan, anymore than the US Flag which they have used plenty as well. Or bed sheets, & crosses, as maximus points out..lol.

Just because you or others who agree with you don't care for the CBF, certainly doesn't change it's meaning to those who don't. I've simply pointed out many contradictions in connecting the CBF & KKK. I notice you STILL say nothing of the Klan using the US Flag.

I also don't view the CBF as a symbol of life under slavery either. The CBF is what it is. A Battle flag. Flown under battle. The CBF never flew over a slave nation. Although, early representations of the US Flag did. For myself, & plenty of others, the CBF simply is a symbol of the brave men who fought, & sacrificed under that flag IN BATTLE. Regardless of the politics of it all (then & now). I respect their service, as well as all who serve, & honor their commitment to their cause in a very troubling time in this country. I propose that no man in the heat of battle, sat & proclaimed his political opinions to his brethren at his side. I would dare say, as with most combatants, the ideals/politics of it all were at minimum secondary to the task at hand...... surviving the day.

All I've done in this thread is point out some of the hypocrisy noted. I've put up multiple examples of selective outrage. You may continue to ignore them. That is fine, & certainly your prerogative. However, in my mind at least, it only reinforces my opinion that selective outrage is in play, both on the personal level, & larger when it comes to those honoring their ancestors.

I'll keep my flag, & I'll continue to honor the sacrifices of my ancestors, & plenty of other peoples. No hate group, or dissenting opinion in this country will ever dictate what's in my mind, or heart.
 

byron ed

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Location
Midwest
just because the KKK has used the the CBF before doesn't make the CBF a symbol of the Klan

And yet the CBF became a symbol of the Klan. So frustrating.

Just because you...don't care for the CBF, certainly doesn't change it's meaning...

I do care for the CBF. I like that it honors the dedication and prowess of a Confederate army.

I've simply pointed out many contradictions in connecting the CBF & KKK.

Just as I've pointed out the several connections, in fact photographic, that demonstrate the CBF's long time connection with the KKK.

I notice you STILL say nothing of the Klan using the US Flag.

Because I saw no issue there. The Klan displays the US Flag a lot.

I also don't view the CBF as a symbol of life under slavery either.

Your heritage people weren't slaves, so that's understandable.

For myself, & plenty of others, the CBF simply is a symbol of the brave men who fought, & sacrificed under that flag IN BATTLE. Regardless of the politics of it all (then & now). I respect their service, as well as all who serve, & honor their commitment to their cause in a very troubling time in this country. I propose that no man in the heat of battle, sat & proclaimed his political opinions to his brethren at his side. I would dare say, as with most combatants, the ideals/politics of it all were at minimum secondary to the task at hand...... surviving the day.

Totally agree and recognize all of that. So sorry that the CBF came to represent other things after the war.

I'll keep my flag

To actually claim it as your flag you'd have to be a Confederate citizen and have fought with the ANV or on a Confederate ship. Instead you're a U.S. citizen, and not nearly old enough to have done those things yourself. Otherwise I'll claim right here and now that it's my flag too, since I want to honor Confederate soldiers as much as you do. The CBF would be a good banner for us to use had it not been so badly compromised.
 
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NH Civil War Gal

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"And yet the CBF became a symbol of the Klan. So frustrating." It is frustrating.

I'd like to ask this and see if any one knows, because I don't - why DID the KKK take the Confederate Battle Flag to use vs. any of the other Confederate battle flags?
 

AshleyMel

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
I'd like to ask this and see if any one knows, because I don't - why DID the KKK take the Confederate Battle Flag to use vs. any of the other Confederate battle flags?

I'm sure someone here has the actual answer but in my opinion.
Stupid is as stupid does!
And I do not like to talk bad about people, however...
None of those jokers would ever be allowed in the SCV or UDC today!
The Sons use the ANV battle flag and the Daughters the First National.
I also do particularly like the Bonnie Blue!
 

maximus_flavius

Private
Joined
Jan 1, 2018
Viper hit the nail in the head with the term "selective outrage". Selective outrage is all the rage nowadays.

When they are done raging about the CBF, & everyone is intimidated or embarrassed by using it, they will move on to the US flag. Untold bad deeds were done under a US flag, & that's more than enough justification for those who are perpetually butt-hurt about something.

Just because some low life's use something (be it a flag, a gun, a car, or other) for illegal or immoral purposes, doesn't mean that I must accept their blame.
 

Lnwlf

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Now that you all have had a break, this thread is open. The discussion of the CBF issue is a subject that has for several years been anathema here at CWT. That discussion is now closed.

Another point is that civility seems to be a lost art with some of you in this discussion of honoring your ancestors. Keep the discussion friendly or do not post until you can do so.

Posted as Moderator
 

byron ed

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Location
Midwest
I'd like to ask this and see if any one knows, because I don't - why DID the KKK take the Confederate Battle Flag to use vs. any of the other Confederate battle flags?

We have to assume you mean Why DID the KKK take the C.S. Army of Northern Virginia's battle flag to use vs. the battle flag of some other C.S. army? That's to keep in mind there was no Confederate battle flag per se; each C.S. army had its own, though the CS Navy would use the same symbol as the ANV battle flag as a battle jack on some vessels.

Then to propose an answer: The KKK probably took the ANV's battle flag to use because of it's association with Beauregard and Lee during the war, the ANV's Union-smashing victories. The KKK went on to create it's own "Blood Drop Cross" as their unique banner.
 
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