Restricted Honoring Ancestors: From Rise and Fall of the Lost Cause view

demiurge

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IMHO taking absolute positions leads to a rhetorical demise nibbled to death by ducks.

More often than not, I'd agree. That being said, I can make a qualitative judgement that a group does more harm than good without making an absolute judgement that nothing that group ever does is good. IMO what you quoted was not an absolute position in that context.
 

jgoodguy

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More often than not, I'd agree. That being said, I can make a qualitative judgement that a group does more harm than good without making an absolute judgement that nothing that group ever does is good. IMO what you quoted was not an absolute position in that context.
Actually they are doing a great and noble service by sinking relics of the lost cause. An incompetent organization can do more harm to their 'cause' than their opponents could ever accomplish.
 

demiurge

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Actually they are doing a great and noble service by sinking relics of the lost cause. An incompetent organization can do more harm to their 'cause' than their opponents could ever accomplish.

Ah, sorry, misunderstood your intent. Thanks for the clarification.
 

Viper21

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Been there many times. As I stated, I'm a Virginian as well. :D Love Hull's Drive In, one of the few great remaining drive ins in the country. Spent some time at the Marshall Library at VMI doing some research. Took my kid to the natural bridge, the local zoos, and foamhenge, before they shipped it off.
Definitely a town rich in history.


I'm not particularly interested in the shrines of confederate generals, so on that regard I'll take a pass. I see nothing worth venerating there. Particularly as when Lee was dying he stated he didn't want any confederate iconography at his funeral (there wasn't) and when he was alive said he didn't want any memorials commemorating the war as they were divisive. Needless to say, his wishes weren't followed in death, and the battle flag is on display in the chapel now.
Weren't any flags on display in the chapel on my last visit there. There is in the museum which, is under the chapel opposite of Lee's family tomb.

As to the rest, several mistruths there, whether intentional or not. The leaflets specifically stated they were recruitment for the KKK. That's not an opinion.
I've seen the flyers. From a group out of Tennessee according to the actual flyers. How does an out of town hate groups flyers distributed in Lexington, reflect poorly on the city of Lexington, or ANY of it's residents..? Just because some of the cities residents were offended (as most people would be) by this, certainly doesn't mean anyone in the city approves. There is no known affiliation of the Klan operating in Lexington, or even Rockbridge county.

Out of town ideologues stir up trouble in lots of cities in this country. Not seeing how the victims (the areas residents) are at fault here.


Killing for white supremacy on ideological grounds has led to both the bloodiest war in US history as well as the bloodiest war in world history. Yes, we should pay more attention to that than gang violence in inner cities.

Not surprised at the minimalizing of significant violence as compared to isolated events. I find roughly 500 murders annually in our Commonwealths capitol pretty significant when compared to an isolated incident that resulted in 1 person being murdered. Both are tragic for sure. However, the Charlottesville incident gets more traction because of ideology plain & simple.


As to the issue with the University who recruited more black students specifically on a campaign of increasing diversity, you can't then also support a flag that fought for racial oppression of the highest order. The University changed their policy because it was the moral thing to do. The South has to grow up about its iconography, especially considering the large percentage of african americans that live in the region. Fortunately it appears that more and more individuals understand that.

A University removing history. No irony there. There was plenty of racial oppression in this country under old glory as well. When was the US military integrated..?? Should we remove the US flag for its role oppression as well..? Silly imo.

More if I have time, but no, we aren't going to agree that the role that the SCV plays is a positive one. For example, not a big fan of their attempt to get the first grand dragon of the KKK his own commemorative license plate. And this isn't in the distant past - this was 2011. Or their law suit agaisnt the city of Vancouver, WA over the Jefferson Davis Highway there. What exactly does Washington state have to do with the Confederacy?

It's a propaganda group, pure and simple.

How many public buildings/roads/etc. are named after Robert Byrd..?? You know, the US Senator who was a ranking member of the KKK. Seems like some pretty important people of todays political spectrum sure thought he was the cat's rear. Some of them had some mighty fine things to say about him too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_named_after_Robert_Byrd

"More than 50 buildings built with funds from US taxpayers directed to West Virginia are named for either Byrd or his wife"

Look at all these mostly at Universities:

  • Robert C. Byrd Health Sciences Center Charleston Division, Charleston, West Virginia[9]
  • Robert C. Byrd Institute for Advanced Flexible Manufacturing (RCBI) Bridgeport Manufacturing Technology Center, Bridgeport, West Virginia[9][10][16]
  • Robert C. Byrd Institute for Composites Technology and Training Center, Bridgeport, West Virginia[9]
  • Robert C. Byrd United Technical Center[6][10]

Hmmm.... a few government buildings too:

  • Robert C. Byrd United States Courthouse and Federal Building, Beckley, West Virginia[6][9][10]
  • Robert C. Byrd Federal Correctional Institution, Hazelton, West Virginia[6][10]


Let me guess..... that's different. LOL
 

Viper21

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What's my point in defending the statements, Ive made..?

That selective outrage is in play. The majority of the outrage directed at those of us who choose to honor our ancestors are victims of selective outrage. I propose that these objections have more to do with politics, & differing political ideology than actual heartful pain, & discomfort at the mere sight of a CBF, or the mere mention of a Confederate soldier.

I see lots of things in this world that disgust me. I tend to ignore them, all the while, acknowledging that some people are into that, & certainly have the right to express themselves how they choose, & or honor who they choose.

There are many examples from modern politics to back up my pov. I'm aware that's not permitted here so, I can't truly make my case in full.

This is my opinion. Yours may differ.
 
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Not surprised at the minimalizing of significant violence as compared to isolated events. I find roughly 500 murders annually in our Commonwealths capitol pretty significant when compared to an isolated incident that resulted in 1 person being murdered. Both are tragic for sure. However, the Charlottesville incident gets more traction because of ideology plain & simple.
Just to give Richmond, VA a little credit, there were 43 murders in 2015, not "500 annually." 500 annually would be concerning, considering that's 200 more than New York City, a considerably larger community.
 
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The only reason I picked up on that is somebody else was talking about Charlottesville, VA and said there were 300 murders there. (actually 2 in 2015). I remember thinking "that doesn't seem right." There were 387 murders/manslaughter cases state wide.
 

MattL

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My problem with the Lost Cause efforts (or efforts of this kind under different agendas) isn't an attempt to defend the honor of an ancestor. That's fine in my opinion. It's transferring some sort of idea of honor and defending it into the here and now from that time. Using it as some sort of proxy for any sort of modern Southern honor. As if speaking about the negatives surrounding the history of the time from our views now insults them somehow and insults people now somehow and shouldn't be done. As if speaking negatively about the Confederate ties to slavery is somehow attacking the modern South.

I don't need to defend my ancestors actions or involvements in a modern context to justify myself in the here and now. I can have both pride and shame of their actions (sometimes at the same time and I think it's hypocritical to only allow one) but neither of those make them my actions. That's the most confusing thing about the Lost Cause efforts, to alter the views of the past by filtering out historical aspects that could only really be deemed equivically offensive in a modern perspective, at it's core it's an attempt to modernize the past which makes no sense.
 

jgoodguy

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What's my point in defending the statements, Ive made..?

That selective outrage is in play. The majority of the outrage directed at those of us who choose to honor our ancestors are victims of selective outrage. I propose that these objections have more to do with politics, & differing political ideology than actual heartful pain, & discomfort at the mere sight of a CBF, or the mere mention of a Confederate soldier.

I see lots of things in this world that disgust me. I tend to ignore them, all the while, acknowledging that some people are into that, & certainly have the right to express themselves how they choose, & or honor who they choose.

There are many examples from modern politics to back up my pov. I'm aware that's not permitted here so, I can't truly make my case in full.

This is my opinion. Yours may differ.
At one time honoring those ancestors were used as a motivation for erecting public symbols in the name of political domination by a political elite. They erected symbols in the name of their domination. Symbols of their victory. Every now and this someone will pick a symbol and claim it pure from politics, but dusty books and newspapers of the time tell a different story.

That political domination is mostly gone and ebbing. As that political domination ebbs, its ability to sustain its symbols ebbs also and the destruction of its symbols are inescapable.

History is littered with fragments of symbols of former political dominion. The world is littered with with fragments symbols of former political dominion. How uncomfortable(or pleasurable) it is for some it is just the impersonal massive weight of history moving on.

I am particularly familiar with a Confederate symbol in Birmingham Alabama. It was erected in the early 1900s. In the 1950s I passed it frequently as a child and no one told me what it was. I saw no special attention paid to it. In the 1960s, Whites fled Birmingham in the great white flight and abandoned it. It sat unremarked until the City wanted to move it and one and only one day,a hindered or so folks that never visited it before and never would again came listened some speeches and left, the Alabama legislature passed a law protecting it and now its fate is in Montgomery as a political chip to appease one group or another. Sometime before my time it died as a living reminder. Dead things will be preserved only for so long.

I find arguments of history, honor or morality tiring about public CSA symbols. I only ask if they are alive in men's hearts, do men come with their friends and family to honor them or are they only honored in brief political demonstrations. Those that are loved will prevail. The unloved are going be gone.
 

byron ed

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I propose that these objections have more to do with politics, & differing political ideology than actual heartful pain, & discomfort at the mere sight of a CBF

The sight of a CBF would be a "mere" thing if it was only used to reference Bouregard's creation of it, the Army of Northern Virginia's use of it, and it's use as the jack on a few Confederate warboats.

But please let's not play innocent about what the CBF became so soon after the CW. No longer merely an artifact honoring one field army and a few boats, but as we all well know it became the symbol of recalcitrant (unreconstructed) Confederate spirit.

For one thing, it's undeniable that the CBF honors the KKK. Own up to that at least. More heritage Southerners espouse a more tactful confederate heritage and deny the KKK connection, re-directing that the CBF instead honors Confederate sacrifice and represents Southern statehood.

But even with that better spin on it, those two things are the ideals of only half of heritage Southerners. As for the other half and their descendants, they suffered vastly more under the post-war CBF than they ever did from the ANV and a few confederate boats. The CBF, what it actually represents, is a big dishonor to them, and understandably so.
 
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Viper21

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At one time honoring those ancestors were used as a motivation for erecting public symbols in the name of political domination by a political elite. They erected symbols in the name of their domination. Symbols of their victory. Every now and this someone will pick a symbol and claim it pure from politics, but dusty books and newspapers of the time tell a different story.

Some of the monuments erected, were erected by donations from descendants who never had the chance to bury their loved one. Many monuments stood as memorials to the sacrifices of those killed. I understand modern interpretations vary. I also don't doubt the political motivations of some (on either side). Politicians certainly do some odd things at times....

I find arguments of history, honor or morality tiring about public CSA symbols. I only ask if they are alive in men's hearts, do men come with their friends and family to honor them or are they only honored in brief political demonstrations. Those that are loved will prevail. The unloved are going be gone.

I hear ya. I would also argue that the outrage is "a political demonstration" as well.

The CSA symbols, people, & monuments are far from the only ones in the cross hairs. I'm betting at some point down the road, those "outraged" by these things will feel differently when censorship, or removal of something close to their heart is targeted.

Again, I see lots of symbols, people, & even monuments I find deplorable. Yet, I'm not "outraged" to the point of wanting them censored, or removed. I just ignore them.
 

Viper21

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The sight of a CBF would be a "mere" thing if it was only used to reference Bouregard's creation of it, the Army of Northern Virginia's use of it, and it's use as the jack on a few Confederate warboats.

But please let's not play innocent about what the CBF became so soon after the CW. No longer an artifact honoring one field army and a few boats, but, as we all well know; a symbol of recalcitrant (unreconstructed) Confederate spirit. The Confederacy was for slavery, btw. The CBF honors the KKK whether that's owned-up to or not. Those of more tactful confederate heritage will deny that connection and re-direct that the CBF honors confederate sacrifice and Southern statehood today.

So even with that best spin on it, those two things are the ideals of only half of the residents of the South. As for the other half and their descendants, they suffered vastly more under the post-war CBF than they ever did from the ANV and a few confederate boats. So no, there's no respect for the CBF in that culture, and understandably so.

I find the connection to the CBF & the KKK absurd. The Klan has waved the American flag plenty. Hardly see anyone connecting them to Old Glory, & calling for it's removal.

kkk_1925.jpg


There's plenty of modern references as well. My point it, just because a hate group has carried, or been photographed with a CBF doesn't make that flag a symbol of the KKK anymore than the US flag. I would definitely call that a "double standard".
 

CSA Today

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I find the connection to the CBF & the KKK absurd. The Klan has waved the American flag plenty. Hardly see anyone connecting them to Old Glory, & calling for it's removal.

kkk_1925.jpg


There's plenty of modern references as well. My point it, just because a hate group has carried, or been photographed with a CBF doesn't make that flag a symbol of the KKK anymore than the US flag. I would definitely call that a "double standard".

Guess which flag is next once the Confederate flag becomes redundant.
 

byron ed

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My entire life...

Over the period of your life then you've seen that more heritage Southerners espouse the more tactful confederate heritage and deny the KKK connection as you do.

Your view aside, you know very well the CBF has traditionally been the symbol of the KKK.
 
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Viper21

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Then you've noticed that more heritage Southerners espouse a more tactful confederate heritage and deny the KKK connection. Why is that?

I think I've covered this pretty well already. How about because there IS NO CONNECTION..! Seriously. Do you really believe that the SCV, & UDC are connected to the KKK..?

Or are you strictly talking about individuals & their personal motives..?
 

Viper21

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Over the period of your life then you've seen that more heritage Southerners espouse the more tactful confederate heritage and deny the KKK connection as you do.

Your view aside, you know very well the CBF has traditionally been the symbol of the KKK.

Why edit your post, & not just make another reply..? Makes it harder to follow, just saying...

Again, I would say... that is YOUR view, & the view of those how hate the CBF. It's a way to demean the flag, & make it even more evil. Why is the US Flag not demonized when the Klan carries it, as they have many times..? Because, like I've stated already. It's not REALLY about a flag...... it's selective outrage born of politics, & ideology.
 

byron ed

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Seriously. Do you really believe that the SCV, & UDC are connected to the KKK..?

That's a wild new idea. I don't think you'll get anyone here to buy it. Anyway it seems off-topic.

The Confederate Battle Flag has traditionally been a symbol of the KKK*, whatever else its been.



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* "The battle flag was never adopted by the Confederate Congress, never flew over any state capitols during the Confederacy, and was never officially used by Confederate veterans' groups. The flag probably would have been relegated to Civil War museums if it had not been resurrected by the resurgent KKK" - Southern political scientists James Michael Martinez, William Donald Richardson, and Ron McNinch-Su from their study of Confederate symbols in the contemporary Southern United States.
 
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