Historical Ignorance and Confederate Generals

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
I knew it would difficult to find a slave in the NM Territory when the Census couldn't find one - but keep looking! Sooner or later you will find one...
That's not the point . The point is the Confedracy tried to expand slavery and failed. We even have an OR the General Silbey far from being a Confedrate defender of the Indians wanted to enslave them but failed.
Leftyhunter
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Williams sources speak for themselves and we have covered that debate previously.
Leftyhunter


If Williams' absurd source claiming the Lumbee Indians attacked Confederate military installations in my area of southeastern North Carolina is indicative of his other sources they should be dismissed out of hand. Do you have a more reputable source indicating that the Confederate army did anything close to what the Yankee army did to Cheyenne and Arapaho women, children, and old men at Sand Creek, Colorado?
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
That's not the point . The point is the Confedracy tried to expand slavery and failed. We even have an OR the General Silbey far from being a Confedrate defender of the Indians wanted to enslave them but failed.
Leftyhunter
Saying that Brig. Gen. Sibley spoke for the CS government is inane as saying the Reverend Colonel Chivington's actions spoke for the US government.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Saying that Brig. Gen. Sibley spoke for the CS government is inane as saying the Reverend Colonel Chivington's actions spoke for the US government.
Both those men were legitimate representatives of their goverment's and we're never censured for their actions.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
If Williams' absurd source claiming the Lumbee Indians attacked Confederate military installations in my area of southeastern North Carolina is indicative of his other sources they should be dismissed out of hand. Do you have a more reputable source indicating that the Confederate army did anything close to what the Yankee army did to Cheyenne and Arapaho women, children, and old men at Sand Creek, Colorado?
They are mentioned in the aforementioned thread.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
If Williams' absurd source claiming the Lumbee Indians attacked Confederate military installations in my area of southeastern North Carolina is indicative of his other sources they should be dismissed out of hand. Do you have a more reputable source indicating that the Confederate army did anything close to what the Yankee army did to Cheyenne and Arapaho women, children, and old men at Sand Creek, Colorado?
Also you never proved that Williams claims were absurd you only made assertion's.
Leftyhunter
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
They are mentioned in the aforementioned thread.
Leftyhunter
Which aforementioned thread? I'm an avid reader of your post and I have yet to see a specific military installation mentioned. There were only three if you include a railroad that ran through Lumbee territory. The other two were the Fayetteville Arsenal (Cumberland County) and Murdock Morrison's small gun factory in Laurel Hill (present-day Scotland County).
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Perhaps it would be helpful you would list the military installations Williams claims the Lumbees attacked.
I already cited you Willams sources in my aforementioned these.
Also @uaskme and @19thGeorgia here's another source of Confedrate troops massacring Indian civilians in the Indian Territory " The Civil War in the American West " Alvin Josephy Jr Vintage Civil War Library p.331-333.
Leftyhunter
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
I already cited you Willams sources in my aforementioned these.
Also @uaskme and @19thGeorgia here's another source of Confedrate troops massacring Indian civilians in the Indian Territory " The Civil War in the American West " Alvin Josephy Jr Vintage Civil War Library p.331-333.
Leftyhunter

Lefty, the truth is the Lumbees belonging to the Henry Berry Lowie gang (never numbering more than 35 members) attacked only those they thought responsible for killing Henry Berry Lowie"s father. Many if not most of these attacks occurred after the war. The only attacks on military installation occurred when Sherman's army came through in March 1865. Sherman's army destroyed the Morrison gun factory in Laurel Hill and destroyed railroad rolling stock, cut the railroad in Laurinburg (both in present-day Scotland County). Several days later Sherman's army destroyed the Fayetteville Arsenal in Cumberland County. No Lumbees were involved in any of this destruction.

The reason you don't want to specifically list any military installation the Lumbees supposedly attacked is that there aren't any.
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Lefty, the truth is the Lumbees belonging to the Henry Berry Lowie gang (never numbering more than 35 members) attacked only those they thought responsible for killing Henry Berry Lowie"s father. Many if not most of these attacks occurred after the war. The only attacks on military installation occurred when Sherman's army came through in March 1865. Sherman's army destroyed the Morrison gun factory in Laurel Hill and destroyed railroad rolling stock, cut the railroad in Laurinburg (both in present-day Scotland County). Several days later Sherman's army destroyed the Fayetteville Arsenal in Cumberland County. No Lumbees were involved in any of this destruction.

The reason you don't want to specifically list any military installation the Lumbees supposedly attacked is that there aren't any.
That's such a minor point. The main point I was making is the Confederacy was not the protector of the Indians quite the contrary. Yes Union troops massacred Indians so did Confedrate troops.
Leftyhunter
 

Belfoured

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
I knew it would difficult to find a slave in the NM Territory when the Census couldn't find one - but keep looking! Sooner or later you will find one...
This appears to be one of those highly unusual cases in the history of legislation that a detailed, 27 section statute (eancted by the NM Territory in 1859) has been drafted and enacted to address something that didn't and couldn't ever exist, with such provisions as:

Section 5: " Any person who shall hire, entice, persuade, or in any manner induce any slave to absent himself from the service or custody of his owner or master or who shall, upon any pretense, harbor or maintain any slave so absenting himself from such service or custody, shall, upon conviction thereof, suffer fine and imprisonment as prescribed in section four of this act, and shall besides be liable to the owner or master in a civil suit for damages";

or Section 7: "Any person who shall sell, lend, hire, give, or in any manner furnish to any slave any sword, dirk, bowie-knife, gun, pistol or other fire arms, or any other kind of deadly weapon of offence, or any ammunition of any kind suitable for fire arms, shall, upon conviction, suffer the penalties prescribed in section six of this act: Provided, that nothing herein contained shall be so construed as to prohibit the owner or master of any slave from temporarily arming such slave with such weapon and ammunition for the purpose of the lawful defense of himself, his family or property";

or Section 9: "Any free person who shall play with any slave at any game of cards, or other game of skill, chance, hazard or address, either with or without betting there[ ] shall be held guilty of a misdemeanor, and be fined in a sum not exceeding one hundred dollars, or imprisoned not exceeding three months, or both, at the discretion of the court.";

or Section 16: "If any person shall fail to maintain or properly provide food, lodging and raiment for any slave of which he is the owner, any judge of the district court, probate judge, or justice of the peace, may, and upon sworn information made before him shall cause such person by his warrant to be brought before him, and upon investigation and proof of such facts in a summary manner without appeal, such judge or justice may require such person to enter into bond with sufficient surety payable to the Territory in such sum as he shall require, and conditioned for the support and maintenance of such slave in the future, which bond may at any time thereafter be put in suit upon the affidavit of any person that the same has become forfeited."

Only a sampling. I guess this is equivalent to California enacting a law that details rights and liabilities with respect to the owner of a live Tyrannosaurus Rex. Such needless concerns and a waste of legislative energy.
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
That's such a minor point. The main point I was making is the Confederacy was not the protector of the Indians quite the contrary. Yes Union troops massacred Indians so did Confedrate troops.
Leftyhunter
I'm aware of former North Carolina Cherokees killing or banishing those of their tribe who deserted to the enemy during the war and then attempted to return after the war. Where else?
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
I'm aware of former North Carolina Cherokees killing or banishing those of their tribe who deserted to the enemy during the war and then attempted to return after the war. Where else?
Williams documented that at least some Lumbe Indians opposed the Confedracy especially as they were forced to build fortifications under horrible conditions.
Williams is a respected peer reviewed historian who wrote an important book detailing Southern resistance to the Confederacy.
Let's not loose sight of the main point vs minor points on the Lumbees. The Confedracy was not done multi racial Kumbya that loved the American Indians.
Leftyhunter
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Williams documented that at least some Lumbe Indians opposed the Confedracy especially as they were forced to build fortifications under horrible conditions.
Williams is a respected peer reviewed historian who wrote an important book detailing Southern resistance to the Confederacy.
Let's not loose sight of the main point vs minor points on the Lumbees. The Confedracy was not done multi racial Kumbya that loved the American Indians.
Leftyhunter
They had the alternative of joining the army. Some of them chose the army, my present SCV camp has a Lumbee member, my past camp had two. I know that is not many but it does indicate that a number of Lumbees chose the army over working on the Fort Fisher.

Nor was the holier than thou USA in the 19th century.
 
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