Help with Information on Old Swords

kevikens

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Location
New Jersey
I have acquired some old swords but I am having trouble with respect to identifying them. I am just getting into using an iPhone to take and send pictures so I don't know how this will turn out. One picture is of several swords together, then pictures of the swords closer up with what I do know about them. From the photo of all of them together from the top is what I was told by the owner of the antique weapons store I purchased it from. According to him it was likely an 18th century French, possibly English, saber from the lion headed pommel. There is no writing, no marks of any kind on it. The scabbard is solid brass, though now almost black in color. The one below that is an early hunting sword with the crowned king's head on both sides of the blade with no other markings.. The next is another but larger hunting sword with no markings anywhere. The owner said it was 18th Century, probably German. The next is the common model 1850 naval sword, probably late 19th Century, post Civil War as the blade is about one inch wide. The decoration, a Union seal, looks like the shield one sees on Spanish American warship's bows. There is a small inset circle of copper with the word "proved" within. No other markings. What I am trying to pin down here is the date the sword was manufactured and where. The last is an unknown short sword with the crown on the blade (razor
All swords needing ID and information.jpg
sharp), one side only, and a number"2" on the ricasso. The scabbard is unmarked. If the pictures I try to post come out, any help would be appreciated.
 
. The one below that is an early hunting sword with the crowned king's head on both sides of the blade with no other markings.. The next is another but larger hunting sword with no markings anywhere. The owner said it was 18th Century, probably German. .

Hirschfängers, secondary sidearm for hunters (and by extrapolation, issued to Jaeger units). After you've fired your .62 to .80 caliber ball into the really angry Boar, deep in the Black Forest, you expressed your manhood by delivering the coup de grâce with one of these.

Second one might be based on a recycle bayonet blade. Need more pics.
 
The reason I like the hunting swords was because of their common use during the Revolutionary War, not just by Jaegers but by other units as well. Newman's book on Revolutionary war weapons has a surprising number of these illustrated, no two alike. The sword carried by Washington was actually a hunting sword design, though more ornate and, according to other writers of the period's weaponry, they were very popular with company level officers, both the continental Line and militia units as American craftsmen had the ability to bang them out. The NJ state museum on the Jersey side of Washington's Crossing has a number of these swords on display. Very few have any kind of markings. The one that most intrigues me is the cavalry saber with the lions' head pommel. When you ask for more pictures I tried to get anything that was some kind of marking. Can you be more specific about what you would like more pictures of? Thanks for the reply.
 
The first one is a Kirschbaum. I dig thru some of my books for the other mark.
weyersburg-kirshchbaum-_med.jpeg
 
Thanks. I am having a hard time on finding out about the old Kirschbaum blades, the ones made before any joint company was formed. Apparently those crowned heads without anything else go back to the 1600's.
 
They do according to my book German swords & sword makers, Soligen sword maker Weyersburg's mark dates back to 1630. This is before the mergers, name cages and many different wars.
 
The first one is a Kirschbaum. I dig thru some of my books for the other mark.

Actually, the king's head mark is for the Solingen firm Weyersberg. It merged with Kirschbaum in the 1880s to form the WKC company. Kirschbaum's pre-merger symbol was the knight's head.

The saber with the lion's head pommel is French in what is sometimes called LePage style when used for swords for the American market. A lot of these were made in Solingen in the 1807-1813 time frame, primarily by Kirschbaum and Schimmelbusch and Schnitzler and Kirschbaum. Look under the languet on your saber and see if it is engraved either "K&S" or "S&K". These marks are often hard to see and next to impossible to photograph. Here is a photo of my K&S saber with a similar hilt but an eagle head pommel:

RIA French Eagle Head 1.jpg
 
Actually, the king's head mark is for the Solingen firm Weyersberg. It merged with Kirschbaum in the 1880s to form the WKC company. Kirschbaum's pre-merger symbol was the knight's head.

The saber with the lion's head pommel is French in what is sometimes called LePage style when used for swords for the American market. A lot of these were made in Solingen in the 1807-1813 time frame, primarily by Kirschbaum and Schimmelbusch and Schnitzler and Kirschbaum. Look under the languet on your saber and see if it is engraved either "K&S" or "S&K". These marks are often hard to see and next to impossible to photograph. Here is a photo of my K&S saber with a similar hilt but an eagle head pommel:

View attachment 142724
Thanks for both pieces of information. Any idea on the date that shorter hunting sword might be from? The person I bought it from said mid to late 18th century. On the saber, was the pommel an eagle for the American market and lion's head for a European market? I'll try to get a small bore light into the spot between the blade and languets. Thanks again.
 
The next is the common model 1850 naval sword, probably late 19th Century, post Civil War as the blade is about one inch wide. The decoration, a Union seal, looks like the shield one sees on Spanish American warship's bows. There is a small inset circle of copper with the word "proved" within. No other markings. What I am trying to pin down here is the date the sword was manufactured and where.

Your Navy sword is a M1852 Officer sword. It is almost certainly pre-WWI since it has genuine ray skin grips; after WWI most grips are artificial. It's hard to tell much more from the photos provided. It does look as though it has a wider blade than most which would support a date between 1872 when the narrower blades were first adopted and sometime before the end of the century when even narrower blades were used. The brass "Proved"-plug might suggest English manufacture, but others, especially some German makers, copied this feature. You say "no other markings" - I presume you mean no other maker's markings. These blades were all rather elaborately etched.
 
Thanks for both pieces of information. Any idea on the date that shorter hunting sword might be from? The person I bought it from said mid to late 18th century. .

Sorry, I can't help much on the hunting sword - really outside my area of expertise. I suspect it may be a bit later. Obviously it is way too short for the scabbard. Either the scabbard is a replacement or the blade has been cut down and re-pointed - can't really judge which from the photos.
 
Weyersburg bought the crowned king mark from he Wundes family roughly the 1770s. From the picture shown and the description from the source, I would submit that the mark is of the Wundes period.

wundes11.jpg

kingshead3.jpg

kingshead2.jpg
kingshead1.jpg
 
My sabre, vetted by the Higgins Armory Museum as Swedish circa 1750 with a Wundes marked blade.


1-1.jpg


The lion pommel at the top of the list infantry and possible for several countries or states of the Napoleonic era. Belgium and Bavaria were fond of lions. Just a hunch.

Cheers

GC
 
Oh
Your Navy sword is a M1852 Officer sword. It is almost certainly pre-WWI since it has genuine ray skin grips; after WWI most grips are artificial. It's hard to tell much more from the photos provided. It does look as though it has a wider blade than most which would support a date between 1872 when the narrower blades were first adopted and sometime before the end of the century when even narrower blades were used. The brass "Proved"-plug might suggest English manufacture, but others, especially some German makers, copied this feature. You say "no other markings" - I presume you mean no other maker's markings. These blades were all rather elaborately etched.
Oh, yes the blade has all kinds of naval, and patriotic scroll like motifs all over the blade, but no other makers marks. Unfortunately I don't have the scabbard for this one. I have seen them and they are most elaborate, and attractive.. I think I'll imagine that this sword was worn by Captain Gridley at Manila Bay and later donate it to the USS Olympia which lies at berth about 10 miles from where I live.
 
Sorry, I can't help much on the hunting sword - really outside my area of expertise. I suspect it may be a bit later. Obviously it is way too short for the scabbard. Either the scabbard is a replacement or the blade has been cut down and re-pointed - can't really judge which from the photos.
The scabbard is a repaired one that came with a 1796 British militia officer saber. The brass drag and about half the scabbard is from that saber and the rest is a repair I made from modern leather and got carried away on the measurements. I did that so I could wear it for Rev War reenacting. If you look at the scabbard you can probably see where I joined the 1796 scabbard with my modern leather replacement.
 
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Actually, the king's head mark is for the Solingen firm Weyersberg. It merged with Kirschbaum in the 1880s to form the WKC company. Kirschbaum's pre-merger symbol was the knight's head.

The saber with the lion's head pommel is French in what is sometimes called LePage style when used for swords for the American market. A lot of these were made in Solingen in the 1807-1813 time frame, primarily by Kirschbaum and Schimmelbusch and Schnitzler and Kirschbaum. Look under the languet on your saber and see if it is engraved either "K&S" or "S&K". These marks are often hard to see and next to impossible to photograph. Here is a photo of my K&S saber with a similar hilt but an eagle head pommel:

View attachment 142724
I tried using a bore light to get in there but there appears to be nothing there or anywhere else that I can find. One thing that was odd was the scabbard, which unfortunately was almost completely cut off in my photo. As I said the whole scabbard from throat to drag is brass, pretty thin, too, which while it makes it light, is not that strong. It is all beat up with dents and dings and almost completely blackened. Is there any significance to an all brass scabbard? Thanks, again
 
While I am at it I have one other saber, a flea market find, which I think is a circa 1812 saber. No markings anywhere except on the top of the blade near the ricasso and again on the side of the blade where it is stamped US in both places. It looks like a Nathan Starr era weapon but his name is nowhere on it. For what it is worth the metal does not seem to have been well forged and the edge of the blade (it is sharp) has damage indentations. Strangely it appears that the wire wrapping is UNDER the leather rather than over it but that may be because the leather has shrunk and deteriorated. Any help on identifying tis one, especially the time period, greatly appreciated. Thanks
 

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Oh

Oh, yes the blade has all kinds of naval, and patriotic scroll like motifs all over the blade, but no other makers marks. Unfortunately I don't have the scabbard for this one. I have seen them and they are most elaborate, and attractive.. I think I'll imagine that this sword was worn by Captain Gridley at Manila Bay and later donate it to the USS Olympia which lies at berth about 10 miles from where I live.
The Olympia is in NJ and open to the public? I ever get back up that way I will check that out.
 
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