Help me ID this sword please!

William Wit

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Joined
Aug 10, 2017
Location
Charleston SC
Thanks in advance for any assistance!

Picked this up today, and I’m having trouble pinning it down to a model. I thought it would be an easy ID, but I’m struggling here. Anyone recognize the model? The initials A.E. are on it in two locations (see photos). It’s quite heavy, and feels extremely sturdy. It was listed as “original Civil War sword”. It seems to be a Calvary sword based on the design and weight, but I’m no expert. It actually looks nearly identical to an 1821 British Light Calvary sword...

Photos: https://imgur.com/a/rLx4A

Blade length: 34”
Length w/Scabbard: 40”

Thank you!
 
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What you have is a British Pattern 1821 Troopers Light Cavalry Sword.
 
A.E. Arsenal do Exercito, Army Arsenal of Portugal

Ah, interesting. There aren’t any other markings so maybe it’s a Portuguese contract P1821? Probably a stupid question... but are you saying the Portuguese Arsenal made it FOR Britain, or did they just make a Portuguese copy of the P1821 for use in their army?

I know quite a few European swords were imported or otherwise used in the CW, mostly by Confederates. If I’m a betting man... I bet the Confederares paid Britain for some calvary swords and Britain sent Portuguese contract versions as they would be cheaper. That would explain how it ended up over here. Since we weren’t fighting the Portuguese, and hadn’t fought the British since the War of 1812 - seems likely it would’ve been imported for the CW.

Can’t really think of another reason a Portuguese/British light Calvary sword would be in Georgia. Of course it’s all a guess.

Thanks again by the way
 
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Not a Brit P1821 but the Portuguese Cav sabre of aorund the 1860s. Kate Tattersail is largely unreliable and leaves out major details sometimes. Better to consult individual experts (NOT ME LOL) and books. Not produced by the Portuguese for the Brits as far as I know, as that honor went to English and German cutlers. As well as this, if I recall correctly the Portuguese contracted these out to the Solingen forges to make, so not much chance of the British producing them and selling them to the CSA. Wouldn't exactly be good for foreign relations if you sold off part of your contract to a rebellion :wink:

I wouldn't claim it has ACW heritage just yet. It may not even be from the ACW period, as this pattern was used from the 1860s until it's obsolescence much later. For instance, I've found Franco Era M43 Officer swords and post 1870 French 1822s here in CA even though we never fought either nation, at least not when they were in use. I've also imported Italian pattern 1860 sabres, so the possibility of an auction in Portugal being sold around or picked up by a tourist isn't ruled out. Especially given it's condition.

Sorry for the rambling, but seen way too many pre - 1860 Euro swords get made out as Civil war pieces to inflate their value. Could very well have ACW heritage, but don't put your coins on it. Appreciate it for what it is first, and romanticize later. Did it come with any oral or written providence?
 
Not a Brit P1821 but the Portuguese Cav sabre of aorund the 1860s. Kate Tattersail is largely unreliable and leaves out major details sometimes. Better to consult individual experts (NOT ME LOL) and books. Not produced by the Portuguese for the Brits as far as I know, as that honor went to English and German cutlers. As well as this, if I recall correctly the Portuguese contracted these out to the Solingen forges to make, so not much chance of the British producing them and selling them to the CSA. Wouldn't exactly be good for foreign relations if you sold off part of your contract to a rebellion :wink:

I wouldn't claim it has ACW heritage just yet. It may not even be from the ACW period, as this pattern was used from the 1860s until it's obsolescence much later. For instance, I've found Franco Era M43 Officer swords and post 1870 French 1822s here in CA even though we never fought either nation, at least not when they were in use. I've also imported Italian pattern 1860 sabres, so the possibility of an auction in Portugal being sold around or picked up by a tourist isn't ruled out. Especially given it's condition.

Sorry for the rambling, but seen way too many pre - 1860 Euro swords get made out as Civil war pieces to inflate their value. Could very well have ACW heritage, but don't put your coins on it. Appreciate it for what it is first, and romanticize later. Did it come with any oral or written providence?

Nope, no providence - just as-is!
 
Wouldn't exactly be good for foreign relations if you sold off part of your contract to a rebellion :wink:

That’s exactly what happened in Europe though - massive amounts of weapons were sent to the CSA. Enfields, most famously. Every document I’ve ever read about CSA weapons says they primarily used their own weapons from home or imported then.

I don’t have any clue why exactly it came here and I’ll probably never know - I just like to think about the most likely possibility. It could be from a sword collector, sure - but I just find it difficult to imagine a military sword collector saying “I’d love to add a Portuguese contract calvary sword to my collection.” It doesn’t seem rare enough or elegant enough.

On the other hand, a contracted P1821 copy being imported by the CSA (who had already been importing European weapons), seems a far more plausible scenario.

Again - I’m not settled on anything - and I’m happy for the discussion. I just like to think about what makes the most sense given the context. I’m not selling it so either way it’s just a research thing.

Thanks for posting!
 
That’s exactly what happened in Europe though - massive amounts of weapons were sent to the CSA. Enfields, most famously. Every document I’ve ever read about CSA weapons says they primarily used their own weapons from home or imported then.

I don’t have any clue why exactly it came here and I’ll probably never know - I just like to think about the most likely possibility. It could be from a sword collector, sure - but I just find it difficult to imagine a military sword collector saying “I’d love to add a Portuguese contract calvary sword to my collection.” It doesn’t seem rare enough or elegant enough.

On the other hand, a contracted P1821 copy being imported by the CSA (who had already been importing European weapons), seems a far more plausible scenario.

Again - I’m not settled on anything - and I’m happy for the discussion. I just like to think about what makes the most sense given the context. I’m not selling it so either way it’s just a research thing.

Thanks for posting!
I think there may be some misunderstanding. When I say it would be foolish to sell off your contract, I mean it in the context of the fact that this is a Portuguese sabre. So for that to happen the following would take place - The Portuguese buy a set amount of a sabres to be created and delivered. The Smith that has the contract (whether English or of Solingen) would then create the sabres being payed for, And then sell them to the confederate States of America. I think you can see why I think this is unlikely, as it would require that specific contractee to be indebted to the Portuguese, when it would be safer and easier to just create a batch specifically for the confederates or just sell them old or current stock.

Also, Personally I quite like collecting weapons of the peninsula. I recently had a M1881/83 Spanish cadets sabre pass through my hands, even though most people not even knowing that model exists.

The Portuguese would be, especially in the condition yours is in an excellent substitute for the British 1821, and could also simply complete a 19th century cavalry swords collection. What may not be interesting to you may be interesting to others basically :wink:

It certainly could be an import for the CSA, But if so I think it's more likely it was sold by the Portuguese than anyone else.

In any case, it's a very very nice sword. Hold onto it, because when you do eventually want to sell it I can see it easily reaching 650 in a few years.

Also, are there any markings on the ricasso? This could help determine who made it, And if it is indeed from a Solingen forge as I suspect.
 
I think there may be some misunderstanding. When I say it would be foolish to sell off your contract, I mean it in the context of the fact that this is a Portuguese sabre. So for that to happen the following would take place - The Portuguese buy a set amount of a sabres to be created and delivered. The Smith that has the contract (whether English or of Solingen) would then create the sabres being payed for, And then sell them to the confederate States of America. I think you can see why I think this is unlikely, as it would require that specific contractee to be indebted to the Portuguese, when it would be safer and easier to just create a batch specifically for the confederates or just sell them old or current stock.

Also, Personally I quite like collecting weapons of the peninsula. I recently had a M1881/83 Spanish cadets sabre pass through my hands, even though most people not even knowing that model exists.

The Portuguese would be, especially in the condition yours is in an excellent substitute for the British 1821, and could also simply complete a 19th century cavalry swords collection. What may not be interesting to you may be interesting to others basically :wink:

It certainly could be an import for the CSA, But if so I think it's more likely it was sold by the Portuguese than anyone else.

In any case, it's a very very nice sword. Hold onto it, because when you do eventually want to sell it I can see it easily reaching 650 in a few years.

Also, are there any markings on the ricasso? This could help determine who made it, And if it is indeed from a Solingen forge as I suspect.

Thanks! No markings unfortunately, other than the A.E. in two places. It clearly saw a lot of use, so it’s possible a marking may be hidden under years of wear, but I did go over it thoroughly with a high powered LED light, and I didn’t see anything else.

The thing that sticks out to me is how well it’s made. It’s extremely solid, all the fittings are lock tight, and the wiring and leather wrapping around the wooden handle are unbelievably taught. This is a sword that I’d personally feel very confident with in battle. I typically don’t collect swords (but love bayonets), so the only other sword I have is an Eickhorn Bavarian officer’s sword from the WW1 era. It’s puny by comparison, and I’m afraid it’ll break with only a medium amount of force.

This one on the other hand I’m pretty sure I could destroy anything with. Here’s that Bavarian sword: https://imgur.com/a/pr25X. Felt I did well on it considering it was $99
 
Thanks! No markings unfortunately, other than the A.E. in two places. It clearly saw a lot of use, so it’s possible a marking may be hidden under years of wear, but I did go over it thoroughly with a high powered LED light, and I didn’t see anything else.

The thing that sticks out to me is how well it’s made. It’s extremely solid, all the fittings are lock tight, and the wiring and leather wrapping around the wooden handle are unbelievably taught. This is a sword that I’d personally feel very confident with in battle. I typically don’t collect swords (but love bayonets), so the only other sword I have is an Eickhorn Bavarian officer’s sword from the WW1 era. It’s puny by comparison, and I’m afraid it’ll break with only a medium amount of force.

This one on the other hand I’m pretty sure I could destroy anything with. Here’s that Bavarian sword: https://imgur.com/a/pr25X. Felt I did well on it considering it was $99
Is The blade sharp? European powers knew to sharpen their swords before battle unlike us. (Lol) Yes, the old Euro sabres are magnificent works of engineering.

That poor Bavarian! Agh, what fool left the guard and pommel to rust. A+ sword otherwise. 99 is fair though.
 
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