GRAPHIC Help identify fallen Confederate - Spotsylvania

One aspect to consider regarding deployment is the order of march as the parent unit approaches the battlefield. If going from route march straight into action they would no doubt deploy into line-of-battle beginning with the lead unit then swing into line on the right or left according to the wish of their brigade commander. ("By companies into line on the ___, march!) Where it becomes sticky is that marching brigades did NOT always form the same order in a marching column. Considering there are usually three-five regiments in a brigade, none wanted to march at the rear of the column where they would "eat the dust" of those ahead of them! The usual answer was for them to rotate on a daily basis, each morning the lead of the previous day dropping to the second position and so forth, the lead being taken by the previous rearmost regiment. This would be repeated daily, so you can imagine that one day the rearmost would be the last to deploy, therefore winding up on the extreme flank; whereas the following day they would be first and on the exact opposite flank.

Edit: I should also add that the brigades within a division and even the divisions within a corps might also rotate from front to rear for the same reason.
 
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Oh wow. So are you saying that some brigades had no "traditional" or "typical" arrangement of regiments?

That hadn't crossed my mind. I guess I just assumed that all Confederate brigades had a traditional arrangement they used. Because the brigade I study used the same one consistently, I just assumed all of them did. Early on, the 16th GA got used to having Cobb's Legion on their left and the 24th Georgia on their right, so after the reorganization, when the 18th GA and Phillips Legion joined them, those regiments got the outside posts with the 18th GA on the far right and Phillips Legion on the far left - leaving the center arrangement the same.
 
I'll add that this was certainly nothing new, and likely the reason it springs readily to mind is because I'm currently reading the memoirs of a cavalry colonel in Napoleon's army invading Russia in which his two-regiment brigade is doing exactly the same thing, though for a different reason. The amusing thing about this instance was that for some reason his regiment seemed to hit it in such a way that they were seeing more action than their fellow unit, and though you would think that would please the members of the other regiment, the reverse was the case because they were jealous because they were being shorted on opportunities for glory, recognition, and promotions!
 
Oh wow. So are you saying that some brigades had no "traditional" or "typical" arrangement of regiments?

That hadn't crossed my mind. I guess I just assumed that all Confederate brigades had a traditional arrangement they used. Because the brigade I study used the same one consistently, I just assumed all of them did. Early on, the 16th GA got used to having Cobb's Legion on their left and the 24th Georgia on their right, so after the reorganization, when the 18th GA and Phillips Legion joined them, those regiments got the outside posts with the 18th GA on the far right and Phillips Legion on the far left - leaving the center arrangement the same.
There might be a "typical" order of march, but it would automatically rotate every day.
 
Oh wow. So are you saying that some brigades had no "traditional" or "typical" arrangement of regiments?

That hadn't crossed my mind. I guess I just assumed that all Confederate brigades had a traditional arrangement they used. Because the brigade I study used the same one consistently, I just assumed all of them did. Early on, the 16th GA got used to having Cobb's Legion on their left and the 24th Georgia on their right, so after the reorganization, when the 18th GA and Phillips Legion joined them, those regiments got the outside posts with the 18th GA on the far right and Phillips Legion on the far left - leaving the center arrangement the same.
What James is talking about is position of march, but there are commands that would align the regiments into the desired battle front. So order of march did not necessarily dictate alignment going into battle.
 
There is some logic to using the same battle alignments. I would think that the respective regiments and commanders gain a certain familiarity and comfort by being aligned the same way each time...but that's just my take on it. I don't know what the military science/doctrine is with regards to that.
 
on the field of battle ,if at all practicable, they would be in the desired battle front . Each commander knows his subordinates strength and weaknesses so will align them accordingly in battle. They would want a strong ,steadfast unit on flanks if possible .
 
If anyone has the link to high a quality TIFF of these photos, please share. The quality of the ones I got from the LOC is not that great, and its limiting my ability to look at the details.

Great work already, guys! I am surprised at how quickly you all jumped on this, starting posting close-ups, etc.
I have read where some Northern photographers would stage the dead in positions that they thought would have the most effect upon the civilians back home Is it possible that this soldier was positioned at this sport in this manner? It could have been one from the line of dead .What is interesting is that I do not see any sign of his being shot in the front and if it had been a cannon ball then this soldier would have a different picture.
 
I was able to view about a dozen pages from a book ("To the North Anna River: Grant and Lee, May 13-25, 1864") online that described the Harris Farm engagement. If you do a Google search for "7th new York heavy artillery alsop", one of the websites that comes up is this one:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=EE...&q=7th new york heavy artillery alsop&f=false

The website allows you to view about a dozen or so pages ….enough to cover the Harris Farm engagement in its entirety.

Alas, I am supposed to be working :frown: so, at the moment, I can't work through all the details of the battle and how it evolved. The book does a good job of describing brigade level alignments. The battle occurred in phases (like all battles). Ramseur's men were the first to arrive, and they did some fighting before they reformed in the woods into the "static lines" shown in the map I posted at the beginning of the thread. I was trying to get more detailed information...it's in there in bits and pieces and corroborates which Union units fought Ramseur's brigade and that Ramseur's men fought at the Alsop farm....but no regiment level information for the Confederates.

It would be great if you folks could read and post anything relevant. I'll get around to it myself tonight/tomorrow.
 
I was able to view about a dozen pages from a book ("To the North Anna River: Grant and Lee, May 13-25, 1864") online that described the Harris Farm engagement. If you do a Google search for "7th new York heavy artillery alsop", one of the websites that comes up is this one:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=EEHvo86fRkgC&pg=PT284&lpg=PT284&dq=7th+new+york+heavy+artillery+alsop&source=bl&ots=l-gXQoenmd&sig=ACfU3U1glefHZdcYWD6MukTMVsKzJi8IYA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu3Ly43t7rAhWCnOAKHf51DNI4ChDoATAFegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=7th new york heavy artillery alsop&f=false

The website allows you to view about a dozen or so pages ….enough to cover the Harris Farm engagement in its entirety.

Alas, I am supposed to be working :frown: so, at the moment, I can't work through all the details of the battle and how it evolved. The book does a good job of describing brigade level alignments. The battle occurred in phases (like all battles). Ramseur's men were the first to arrive, and they did some fighting before they reformed in the woods into the "static lines" shown in the map I posted at the beginning of the thread. I was trying to get more detailed information...it's in there in bits and pieces and corroborates which Union units fought Ramseur's brigade and that Ramseur's men fought at the Alsop farm....but no regiment level information for the Confederates.

It would be great if you folks could read and post anything relevant. I'll get around to it myself tonight/tomorrow.
This is great information and as a result, I promptly ordered the book, there just is not enough Southern info, so I am hoping that the bibliography might shed some light. I did find it very enlightening, particularly after traipsing those same fields and now backyards.

The History of the 7th NYHA is a very expensive book, Keating’s “Carnival of Blood”, so I think a library visit might be in order.
 
OK, my work has subsided a bit.......

So last week I visited the location of the Alsop House, there are now multiple property owners of the area of the Alsop Farm and one of the homes is for sale. I went down the lane to the house for sale, which fronts the creekbed discussed in many of the accounts of the Harris Farm battle. The area of the home and creek is fairly well back in a forest, that was not there during the mid 1860s, but the front lot was where I believe our two soldiers fell and their pictures taken. The first image is where I believe the youngest of the two subjects was photographed, it is still a hedge row.
Alsop 1.JPG


The second shot is not the exact angle of the side on photo from 1864, but shows the topography that I believe matches the 1864 shots

Alsop 2.JPG


The third image is taken in what I believe O'Sullivan's position:
Alsop 3.JPG


This area is a small ridge that the Federal Heavy Artillery units discussed, the Federal line would be formed from behind approximately 1/2 mile along this small ridge to the Harris Farm and through the Alsop Farm to the Peyton Farm. The battle lines were approximately 1 mile in length. The gravel lane leads to the house for sale and drops down paralleling the creek bed.

Looking at the youngest of the two soldiers in the head on photograph, you will notice the area to the soldiers right starting a slight decline, which is mimicked in these photos.
 
OK, my work has subsided a bit.......

So last week I visited the location of the Alsop House, there are now multiple property owners of the area of the Alsop Farm and one of the homes is for sale. I went down the lane to the house for sale, which fronts the creekbed discussed in many of the accounts of the Harris Farm battle. The area of the home and creek is fairly well back in a forest, that was not there during the mid 1860s, but the front lot was where I believe our two soldiers fell and their pictures taken. The first image is where I believe the youngest of the two subjects was photographed, it is still a hedge row.View attachment 373291

The second shot is not the exact angle of the side on photo from 1864, but shows the topography that I believe matches the 1864 shots

View attachment 373296

The third image is taken in what I believe O'Sullivan's position:
View attachment 373297

This area is a small ridge that the Federal Heavy Artillery units discussed, the Federal line would be formed from behind approximately 1/2 mile along this small ridge to the Harris Farm and through the Alsop Farm to the Peyton Farm. The battle lines were approximately 1 mile in length. The gravel lane leads to the house for sale and drops down paralleling the creek bed.

Looking at the youngest of the two soldiers in the head on photograph, you will notice the area to the soldiers right starting a slight decline, which is mimicked in these photos.

this is awesome investigation work !
 
OK, my work has subsided a bit.......

So last week I visited the location of the Alsop House, there are now multiple property owners of the area of the Alsop Farm and one of the homes is for sale. I went down the lane to the house for sale, which fronts the creekbed discussed in many of the accounts of the Harris Farm battle. The area of the home and creek is fairly well back in a forest, that was not there during the mid 1860s, but the front lot was where I believe our two soldiers fell and their pictures taken. The first image is where I believe the youngest of the two subjects was photographed, it is still a hedge row.View attachment 373291

The second shot is not the exact angle of the side on photo from 1864, but shows the topography that I believe matches the 1864 shots

View attachment 373296

The third image is taken in what I believe O'Sullivan's position:
View attachment 373297

This area is a small ridge that the Federal Heavy Artillery units discussed, the Federal line would be formed from behind approximately 1/2 mile along this small ridge to the Harris Farm and through the Alsop Farm to the Peyton Farm. The battle lines were approximately 1 mile in length. The gravel lane leads to the house for sale and drops down paralleling the creek bed.

Looking at the youngest of the two soldiers in the head on photograph, you will notice the area to the soldiers right starting a slight decline, which is mimicked in these photos.

OMG, this is great stuff!

How did it feel like to be standing where others had fallen? (not just anyone, but someone who you saw in a photograph).
 
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OMG, this is great stuff!

How did it feel like to be standing where others had fallen? (not just anyone, but someone who you saw in a photograph).
I've actually taken Frassanito's books with me to both Gettysburg and Sharpsburg, studying the Rose Woods soldiers in detail, so the feeling was similar, but since we are more invested, it was rather surreal.
 
I was able to view about a dozen pages from a book ("To the North Anna River: Grant and Lee, May 13-25, 1864") online that described the Harris Farm engagement. If you do a Google search for "7th new York heavy artillery alsop", one of the websites that comes up is this one:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=EEHvo86fRkgC&pg=PT284&lpg=PT284&dq=7th+new+york+heavy+artillery+alsop&source=bl&ots=l-gXQoenmd&sig=ACfU3U1glefHZdcYWD6MukTMVsKzJi8IYA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu3Ly43t7rAhWCnOAKHf51DNI4ChDoATAFegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=7th new york heavy artillery alsop&f=false

The website allows you to view about a dozen or so pages ….enough to cover the Harris Farm engagement in its entirety.

Alas, I am supposed to be working :frown: so, at the moment, I can't work through all the details of the battle and how it evolved. The book does a good job of describing brigade level alignments. The battle occurred in phases (like all battles). Ramseur's men were the first to arrive, and they did some fighting before they reformed in the woods into the "static lines" shown in the map I posted at the beginning of the thread. I was trying to get more detailed information...it's in there in bits and pieces and corroborates which Union units fought Ramseur's brigade and that Ramseur's men fought at the Alsop farm....but no regiment level information for the Confederates.

It would be great if you folks could read and post anything relevant. I'll get around to it myself tonight/tomorrow.
After reading what I could of the Harris Farm engagement, I was able to glean a few tidbits that now make more sense to me after my visit to the property. There is an excerpt that discusses a 300' burial trench on the Alsop Farm for the Union dead, when speaking with one of the property owners, on the Alsop Farm, he showed me the location of a burial trench. He indicated that it was where the Confederate dead were buried, but it did not dovetail with the photographs and I was puzzled. I chose not to challenge his assertion and I am glad I did not, what he pointed out to me was most likely the Union burial trench.
 
"While Union ambulances collected corpses from the battlefield, Federal pioneers dug a trench two feet deep, six feet wide and three hundred feet long near the Alsop House. A gray overcast sky provided a somber setting. Burial details laid the bodies, still clad in new uniforms, in the ditch, covered them with blankets and shoveled dirt over them. "I never saw a line of dead men lying side by side in one grave before or since" a soldier in the 86th NY reminisced. "The site was the most horrifying I had yet seem in our three years at the front"
 
The homeowner whom I spoke to, did not have his house for sale it was the one next door. I asked him what the asking price was and why it was being sold and said that the woman who owned the property worked for the EPA, but came down with a rare blood disorder and passed. She lived with her mother, who passed soon after and the estate was selling the property, this is the property where I believe that the photos of our two subjects were taken, in the front field.

The homeowner that I spoke to also assumed that his home was built on the foundation of the old Alsop house, again I did not want to disagree, but the size of the Alsop House and his were vastly different. His house was to the immediate right of the picture above and was the third dwelling to have been built on the foundation.

He did have some interesting stories about the place, he said that when he first moved to the home, approximately 35 years ago, he purchased a vehicle from an auto dealer and the salesman was in his eighties. I imagine that this was around 1985, so the salesman was born approximately 1905 or before. The salesman regaled "Philip" with tales of pocket change he acquired as a youngster in the front yard of the Alsop property. He said that he found thousands of bullets there and sold them for walking around money. Keep in mind that this area was actually in Grant's rear and the Fredericksburg Road was the supply line. One of the reasons the attack failed was the pillaging of wagons and such in the area between the Alsop House and the Peyton Farm.

Muskets, sabers, cooking and eating utensils came out of the ground around the house and creek, some fairly recently. Philip, who is originally from London, has a favorite "surveyor", who comes out regularly and hunts the property.
IMG_4349.JPG
 
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