GRAPHIC Help identify fallen Confederate - Spotsylvania

Soldier #1 looks like he is early 20s. In fact, my 24 year old son looks about the same age, but he was never in a war, which ages you.

Soldier #2 looks older...at least 30 years old, and my guess is about 33 (not factoring any aging from the wear and tear of war). That would match up with your theory, that #2 is Dickson.

Looking at the soldiers laid out in a row, the nearest one looks mid-30s. The next one, looks about 26-27, the 3rd one is hard to tell due to the angle but he looks 30+, and the 4th one looks the oldest...mid-30s, but older than the first in the row. The rest are indistinguishable.

Certainly, Soldier #1 is the youngest looking of all the ones that can be seen amongst the various pictures. The only one that looks reasonably close is the second one in the row. This too would support your theory that Soldier #1 is Waters......but do others come up with similar ages (or ranking of ages from youngest to oldest)?

Of course, some people can look surprisingly older or younger...think of Dick Clark the TV personality...he looked way younger than his real age. People have always thought of me as being about 5 years younger than I actually am.


Late in the war many non commissioned officers did not wear stripes, their men already knew who they were and their rank.

Interesting, I didn't know that....always learning!
 
... Late in the war many non commissioned officers did not wear stripes, their men already knew who they were and their rank.

Interesting, I didn't know that....always learning!
Of course another reason was the rather obvious fact that enemy marksmen were known to target those who appeared to be officers and NCO's fit that bill as well. By then officers had stopped wearing not only their sashes on a routine basis but even also their shoulder straps, at least in an obvious combat situation. Some generals substituted simple stars pinned to the shoulders of their tunics instead of the gaudy "sardine tins" favored by flamboyant characters like Custer.
 
Looks like he was hit in the upper leg around the groin and in the shoulder and died from blood loss , Their is no blood on his face or near his mouth so i doubt he may have had internal injuries , He would have bled out within an hour which may account for the makeshift bandages more than likely applied by union troops imho.

These photos are fascinating and dreadful at the same time war is indeed hell wherever you encounter it.
 
Not much is known about Stephen Waters, in fact he doesn't show up in some histories or rosters, so I took a stab to see what I might find. I suspected that since he enlisted on 4/1/64, he had to have just turned 18 or there about and most likely was from the same county as the others in D. There was only 1 individual who met this criteria and he was born 1846 and from Indian Springs, NC in Wayne County, there are no subsequent records of this individual post '64.

All of this is supposition, but I think may actually prove out.

Certainly, if correct, the younger of the two would be Stephen Waters,
I went looking for images of Stephen Waters; none available that I can find. Seems he was either an orphan or the son of a widow. Stephen is found on the 1860 US Census in Indian Springs, Wayne County, NC (age 14; b. 1846) in the household of John and Phebe Capps. I suspect that Phebe Capps is Stephen's aunt - his mother's sister? Also in the household are Polly Casey (probably his grandmother), Polly Casey jr (probably another aunt) and her son Cornelius age 2 (his cousin?) and then Stephen.
1598988535225.png
 
We now need to make sure that these men are from the 4th. A late war Confederate regimental battle line did not cover much distance and there may have been more regiments of the brigade at the Alsop Farm.

We need to check May 19th records for the 2nd, 14th and 30th NC. I am on the road today, but may have some time later this evening or tomorrow.

@east tennessee root, might we impose on you once more for May 19 deaths of the above regiments? Many Thanks!
 
I apologize for my absence, but the old desktop has the Windows 10 Black Screen of death, so I'll use my laptop but would love to have access to my files.......of course I didn't back up. Just a graphics driver issue, but time consuming to fix.

On Wednesday, I just happened to be about 45 minutes North of the Alsop Farm on business, so when it was concluded off I went and am I glad I did!

Susan M Alsop, known as the widow Alsop was a very handsome woman (see recently found photograph below), whose husband died in a carriage accident (1860) only two years after they were married. She was pregnant at the time. The farm had 9 slaves and a white laborer in 1860 and by all accounts Mrs. Alsop ran it very efficiently. She was apparently a very kind and Christian woman, as most of her slaves continued to live on and around the farm well after the war, in fact it was the youngest slave, Edmund Scott whose son Eddy, accidently burned the home and outbuildings down in 1901. Sadly Eddy perished in the blaze.

Mrs. Alsop never remarried, even though she lived into her seventies, in the picture below you can see she is wearing a photographic broach with a picture of her husband.


This is from the Free Lance of May 1, 1901:
A young colored boy, son of Edmund Scott, who lived with Mrs. Sue M. Alsop at her home “Clover Dale,” about eight miles from this city in Spotsylvania, was in a chaff pen looking for hens’ nests, Tuesday evening. He lighted a match to find the nests. A spark ignited a the chaff and he was burned to death. The flames quickly spread to the barns and other out-buildings, which were soon destroyed. Then the fire reached the residence and it, too, was burned to the ground. Some of the furniture was saved but in a badly broken condition. Mrs. Alsop was not at home and there was no lady on the place except Miss, Ella Parker, a companion of Mrs. Alsop.

I found the property and chatted with the current owner for over an hour and think I might have actually found the location of the pictures, but more on that later in another post.
Susan Alsop restored 2.jpg
 
I apologize for my absence, but the old desktop has the Windows 10 Black Screen of death, so I'll use my laptop but would love to have access to my files.......of course I didn't back up. Just a graphics driver issue, but time consuming to fix.

On Wednesday, I just happened to be about 45 minutes North of the Alsop Farm on business, so when it was concluded off I went and am I glad I did!

Susan M Alsop, known as the widow Alsop was a very handsome woman (see recently found photograph below), whose husband died in a carriage accident (1860) only two years after they were married. She was pregnant at the time. The farm had 9 slaves and a white laborer in 1860 and by all accounts Mrs. Alsop ran it very efficiently. She was apparently a very kind and Christian woman, as most of her slaves continued to live on and around the farm well after the war, in fact it was the youngest slave, Edmund Scott whose son Eddy, accidently burned the home and outbuildings down in 1901. Sadly Eddy perished in the blaze.

Mrs. Alsop never remarried, even though she lived into her seventies, in the picture below you can see she is wearing a photographic broach with a picture of her husband.



I found the property and chatted with the current owner for over an hour and think I might have actually found the location of the pictures, but more on that later in another post.View attachment 372835


can't leave us hanging! this thread has me hooked
 
I apologize for my absence, but the old desktop has the Windows 10 Black Screen of death, so I'll use my laptop but would love to have access to my files.......of course I didn't back up. Just a graphics driver issue, but time consuming to fix.

On Wednesday, I just happened to be about 45 minutes North of the Alsop Farm on business, so when it was concluded off I went and am I glad I did!

Susan M Alsop, known as the widow Alsop was a very handsome woman (see recently found photograph below), whose husband died in a carriage accident (1860) only two years after they were married. She was pregnant at the time. The farm had 9 slaves and a white laborer in 1860 and by all accounts Mrs. Alsop ran it very efficiently. She was apparently a very kind and Christian woman, as most of her slaves continued to live on and around the farm well after the war, in fact it was the youngest slave, Edmund Scott whose son Eddy, accidently burned the home and outbuildings down in 1901. Sadly Eddy perished in the blaze.

Mrs. Alsop never remarried, even though she lived into her seventies, in the picture below you can see she is wearing a photographic broach with a picture of her husband.


This is from the Free Lance of May 1, 1901:
A young colored boy, son of Edmund Scott, who lived with Mrs. Sue M. Alsop at her home “Clover Dale,” about eight miles from this city in Spotsylvania, was in a chaff pen looking for hens’ nests, Tuesday evening. He lighted a match to find the nests. A spark ignited a the chaff and he was burned to death. The flames quickly spread to the barns and other out-buildings, which were soon destroyed. Then the fire reached the residence and it, too, was burned to the ground. Some of the furniture was saved but in a badly broken condition. Mrs. Alsop was not at home and there was no lady on the place except Miss, Ella Parker, a companion of Mrs. Alsop.

I found the property and chatted with the current owner for over an hour and think I might have actually found the location of the pictures, but more on that later in another post.View attachment 372835
You, Sir, have no reason to apologize. You have made huge contributions to this thread.

I am simply amazed...gobsmacked as the Brits say...at the stuff you have posted. Its not enough that you have reached deep into what data resources you have...you, Sir, decided to visit the Alsop Farm yourself. If that isnt dedication, I dont know what is.

I wish I could be as helpful to this thread, as you.

I gotta say that when I started this thread, I had hoped the Forum members would be able work magic like with the William Newlin thread...it may take us a while but many pieces of information are coming together...its incredible what can be done with some passion and determination.
 
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Its late, but I'll post this little tidbit and try to find more info later this weekend. I was able to access a few pages online from this book 30th North Carolina Infantry
in the
Civil War
A History and
Roster
. Venner William Thomas

According To the book, during the Harris farm engagement on May 19, 1864, the 30th NC was deployed "in its usual place" in Ramseur's brigade...on the right. They fought against the 4th New York Heavy Artillery. This might suggest that the fallen Confederates in the pictures were not part of the 30th NC.​

Do people agree? Also, does anyone know what the typical alignment of the other 3 Regiments of Ramseur's Brigade was (from left to right)?​
 
Its not the best quality picture, but here is another map of the Harris Farm Engagement, as the battle of May 19, 1864 is called. This map shows that the two regiments on the left of Ramseur's brigade were most likely engaged in front of the Alsop house. The alignment of the brigades is a bit different than the map in Post#1.

Being able to determine the location of the fallen in relation to the Alsop buildings (see early part of the thread) will help narrow down the regiment that the fallen most likely belonged to. Recall that the fallen were found south of the Alsop farm, and that the alignment of the Alsop farm buildings is the main house, with 3 outbuildings in a line bearing south. Post #4 of the thread shows at least one building and possibly 3 in the background....it would be good to get some opinions on whether people think its 1 or 3.

20200905_094714.jpg
 
I quite agree with you about the rifle, but there's an absolutely ridiculous "fact" re the abdomen wrap: despite the weather, a medical "cure" or old wives tale of the period advised so wrapping the abdomen to ward off illness! Supposedly this was taken as gospel by many in this era, especially in the South.

By way of confirmation, the mid-19th century British Army wore a flannel wrapping around the abdomen under the tunic. They were termed "cholera belts." They were also believed to deter dysentery.

The French Foreign Legion still wear them when in parade dress, though they wear them over the tunic in the form of a blue cummerbund.
 




I read through these regimental histories with respect to the Spotsylvania battle. Only the history of the 4th NC gives casualty numbers for the May 19 Harris Farm engagement. I've tried looking elsewhere, but with no success so far.
 
I read through these regimental histories with respect to the Spotsylvania battle. Only the history of the 4th NC gives casualty numbers for the May 19 Harris Farm engagement. I've tried looking elsewhere, but with no success so far.
So the 14th NC suffered two fatalities:

1599583700493.png

I read through these regimental histories with respect to the Spotsylvania battle. Only the history of the 4th NC gives casualty numbers for the May 19 Harris Farm engagement. I've tried looking elsewhere, but with no success so far.
The 2nd suffered 4 fatalities:

1599583848557.png

I read through these regimental histories with respect to the Spotsylvania battle. Only the history of the 4th NC gives casualty numbers for the May 19 Harris Farm engagement. I've tried looking elsewhere, but with no success so far.
The 30th suffered 2 Fatalities:

1599583972923.png

So now we need to figure out the configuration of the brigade since there were a total of 17 fatalities across their front.
 
Are the battle lines usually kept the same ? if so earlier at Laurel Hill I found the following inf

View attachment 373146

View attachment 373147
This is great information, but as you can see all units are listed in descending order starting with the lowest numbered regiment. When Grimes deployed his brigade, we need to know alignment in battle line, basically left, center and right. I have yet to search, but Federal unit histories may tell us who was in front of them, particularly, when this was the first battle for some of the heavies.
 
This is great information, but as you can see all units are listed in descending order starting with the lowest numbered regiment. When Grimes deployed his brigade, we need to know alignment in battle line, basically left, center and right. I have yet to search, but Federal unit histories may tell us who was in front of them, particularly, when this was the first battle for some of the heavies.

sorry I'm new to this in-depth research stuff. I didn't even notice about the lowest to highest . this is just so intriguing and it's getting so close that I got excited lol
 
Its late, but I'll post this little tidbit and try to find more info later this weekend. I was able to access a few pages online from this book 30th North Carolina Infantry
in the

Civil War

A History and

Roster

. Venner William Thomas


According To the book, during the Harris farm engagement on May 19, 1864, the 30th NC was deployed "in its usual place" in Ramseur's brigade...on the right. They fought against the 4th New York Heavy Artillery. This might suggest that the fallen Confederates in the pictures were not part of the 30th NC.

Do people agree? Also, does anyone know what the typical alignment of the other 3 Regiments of Ramseur's Brigade was (from left to right)?
I've been trying to get more information on the "typical alignment" of the regiments that comprise Ramseur's Brigade. So far, the only other map I have found is for Day 1 of Gettysburg, when Ramseur was involved in the battle for Oak Hill. The Brigade had the same regimental composition (the 2nd, 4th, 14th and 30th NC), and it was aligned, from left to right as follows: 4th NC, 2nd NC, 30th NC, 14th NC.

Too early to say if this was the "typical alignment"....need more evidence...but if it were then it would mean the 4th was on the left during the Harris Farm engagement which, according to the maps, would place the 4th NC as the closest Ramseur regiment to the fighting at the Alsop farm (which would bolster the existing evidence compiled in this thread that the fallen soldiers are from the 4th). But we need more evidence. The Gettysburg alignment somewhat concurs with what I posted earlier, that the 30th was in its usual place on the right (but when I had first read that I had assumed the extreme right, whereas at Gettysburg they were in the middle right). Gettysburg was a year earlier...finding out the alignment in the early portion of the Wilderness Campaign would provide stronger evidence.

Ramseur - battle-of-gettysburg-oak-ridge-july-1.jpg
 
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