Monuments Harriet Tubman on Currency

Cycom

Sergeant
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Feb 19, 2021
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Los Angeles, California
I've no desire to get into a dispute about a man like Bedford Forrest; I have little interest in him.
You claim to study “social history” yet you appear incapable of seeing how his views regarding the relationships between groups evolved significantly between the time he was a slave owner to the postbellum years. I’ve provided the firsthand words from the man himself. It’s you who’ve provided nothing but opinion.

However, the quotations that you give are from a speech that he gave and which were given little credit. A person can say anything s/he wants--it's called "spin control". No facts whatsoever. To look at what a person means--rather than what s/he says for an audience, it is necessary to look at the pattern of that person's actions as well as evaluations by those in a position to know.
Since you’re saying his words were “spin control,” what actions of his during this time go counter to his words? Let’s see some of those facts.

One of the silly statements is that he called for disbanding KKK. He says that he called for it--but the organization continued, along with his probable continued involvement. Public repudiation, actually something else. NBF's ongoing and continued relationship is attested to be numerous statements by others who knew him--by UCV itself (and these testimonies continued long after his death. For example (1909)
Bedford Forrest should always be held in reverence by every son and daughter of the South as long as memory holds dear the noble deeds and service of men for the good of others on this earth. What mind is base enough to think of what might have happened but for Bedford Forrest and his “invisible” but victorious army. “ (p. 9) [“invisible army" was KKK]
He did call for its disbanding. That’s a fact.

That the organization continued has exactly what to do with Forrest? If I start a target shooting club and then call for its disbandment because I don’t like the members anymore, I am not responsible if they continue to operate. The quote you gave shows nothing about NBFs involvement in the klan after he called for its dissolution. You are being very disingenuous here.
 

Cycom

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Los Angeles, California
If he truly was so great an advocate for the very people he had profited from, the very people he had held as human chattel, then why haven't any of the civil rights groups come to his defense in the controversy over his bust? FACT
He WAS a slave trader. Key word being was. My point, which you are consciously and consistently missing, is that his views CHANGED. What do the opinions of civil rights groups have to do with him?
Looking at the patterns, I'm inclined to agree with historian Michael Martinez who wrote, "Although Forrest repudiated the group's activities after less than two years, he transformed the budding terrorist organization into an effective mechanism for promoting white supremacy in the Old South.” There is a difference between "development" and "change". Did NBF has a "Road to Damascus Moment"? Probably not.
I’ve provided direct quotes from Forrest himself proving a distinct evolution in sentiment regarding his views on race. You’ve provided opinion. Where are the FACTS that show his views did not evolve or that his words were empty or as you asserted, “spin control?”
 

Cycom

Sergeant
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Location
Los Angeles, California
Like that one member said, it is a bad comparison and furthermore you missed the real comparison. Lincoln always abhorred slavery, he didn't have an epiphany during the course of his life that changed his thinking. He always hated "slavery" and could empathize with slaves. Why? Because it is a known fact that Lincoln's father treated him like a slave: worked him 20 Hrs. ED, contracted him out and public humiliations. Lincoln could empathize with slaves, no matter the skin color. Outside of that I'm quite sure Lincoln didn't have much in common with black people. But he could empathize with their plight. What could NBF empathize with slaves about? Nothing. He actually was a proponent for sustaining slavery, he actually fought for it. Lincoln never owned slaves nor did he ever fight for it. Prove that NBF could empathize with slaves or black people for that matter. Never mind, you can't and never will...

You and others seem to be hung up on slavery, as if it’s the end all be all. It’s not. Slavery ended during this time. Racism remained. That he changed his views over time is proven.

Yes, I’m sure Lincoln could properly empathize with slaves and their treatment. An LOL back to you, sir.
But the real issue here is that you made a comparison on how two people who lived in a white supremist society somehow gradually overcame their racism: one with rhetoric and another by actions. LOL. What exactly are you trying to prove? NBF was part of an all-inclusive military/social/economic defeat that relegated him to a dirt farmer when he spouted out that rhetoric. That equates to a lifelong atheist who repents on his or her deathbed.

Oh, rhetoric vs action. Ok. What actions should Forrest have taken to transform his words into deeds?

He publicly called for the goodwill between races in a time and place where it was very unpopular to do so (postbellum South). In your estimation, what else should he have done to promote fraternity between black and white?
Godspeed..
And to you.
 

Fairfield

Sergeant Major
Member of the Month
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Dec 5, 2019
I’ve provided the firsthand words from the man himself. It’s you who’ve provided nothing but opinion.
OK, Words speak louder than actions. The Bible must have been wrong when it was written "by your deeds you shall know them" (Matthew 7:6). That he was involved for a long time (according to Conferate veterans) with a terrorist organization doesn't count. He says that he was wonderful, so disregard what he did.
what actions of his during this time go counter to his words?
UCV had no doubt that his involvement wit KKK was terrific. These were his contemporaries and colleagues. I've gone through masses of UCV literature (have you?).
He did call for its disbanding. That’s a fact.
Sure, I can call for world peace but it's not the fact of his oral statement that is at issue--but the sincerity of it.
You are being very disingenuous here.
Not really. Just as it is only patterns that indicate that he was disingenuous, there isn't a thing to indicate that he was sincere.

If I said to you "I am just about the most wonderful person in the world" but those who knew me and what I had actually done paint a very different picture, would you say "well, she said it so it must be so"? I should think--I should hope--that you'd do some assessment with a somewhat jaundice eye.

I'm inclined to believe UCV on this.
 
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Cycom

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Los Angeles, California
UCV had no doubt that his involvement wit KKK was terrific. These were his contemporaries and colleagues. I've gone through masses of UCV literature (have you?).
UCV’s opinions have exactly what to do with Forrests’ words and actions which I’ve put forth?

If you enjoy being defined by the opinions of other men, have at it.




Not really. Just as it is only patterns that indicate that he was disingenuous, there isn't a thing to indicate that he was sincere.

What actions of his, in the time frame I’m mentioning, show he was insincere in his words? You still haven’t demonstrated any kind of hypocrisy on his part. The opinions of others don’t count.
If I said to you "I am just about the most wonderful person in the world" but those who knew me and what I had actually done paint a very different picture, would you say "well, she said it so it must be so"? I should think--I should hope--that you'd do some assessment with a somewhat jaundice eye.

I'm inclined to believe UCV on this.
Who said he was a wonderful person? Not me. Not him. His words and actions demonstrate a significant change in outlook. He went from being a slave owner/dealer to seeking reconciliation between the races. If that isn’t enough that’s on you and your rigidity of thought.

You can be inclined to believe whatever you want. I’ve quoted the man himself, given a general timeline showing a distinct change in thought. All you’ve provided is narrative driven conjecture. That you are unwilling to look beyond his association with slavery and white supremacy while giving a free pass to others who achieved a measure of redemption shows some deep seated tribalism on your part.

Honestly, this conversation with you has become redundant. It’s like having a debate with a lost causer, attempting to demonstrate Lincoln’s growth in the field of race while the other party continues harping on “but, but, he WAS a white supremacist at some point.”
 

Fairfield

Sergeant Major
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Dec 5, 2019
V’s opinions have exactly what to do with Forrests’ words and actions which I’ve put forth?
Which actions? That man did but one positive thing in his life.

OK, we'll agree: the Bible had it wrong (Mat. 7:6) and should be amended to "by their own words you shall know them".
 

Cycom

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Los Angeles, California
I Which actions? That man did but one positive thing in his life.

OK, we'll agree: the Bible had it wrong (Mat. 7:6) and should be amended to "by their own words you shall know them".
No offense, but I recommend you stop quoting the Bible. Even a person with the most rudimentary knowledge of Christianity knows that redemption/salvation is one of its most fundamental tenets. Except you, it seems, as you seem to apply it selectively based on your tribalism.
 

Fairfield

Sergeant Major
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Dec 5, 2019
No offense, but I recommend you stop quoting the Bible. Even a person with the most rudimentary knowledge of Christianity knows that redemption/salvation is one of its most fundamental tenets. Except you, it seems, as you seem to apply it selectively based on your tribalism.
Sorry, offense taken. Say what your mean and mean what you say. If a man, 2 years before his death, says (in effect) "I love the very people that for the first 54 years I killed, brutalized and terrorized", the hearer must be excused for being uneasy with this sudden conversion. No one else of his time believed it. UCV continued to praise him for his involvement with KKK.

Redemption and salvation come from sincere repentance. Where is repentance in that speech?

Sorry, he's not going to be invited in for coffee here. 🙂
 
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TSJ

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Feb 2, 2021
OK, Words speak louder than actions. The Bible must have been wrong when it was written "by your deeds you shall know them" (Matthew 7:6). That he was involved for a long time (according to Conferate veterans) with a terrorist organization doesn't count. He says that he was wonderful, so disregard wh
If you’ve read the book of acts you’ve surely ran across the account of Saul’s/Paul’s conversion to Christianity on the Damascus road.
 
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