Monuments Harriet Tubman on Currency

FedericoFCavada

First Sergeant
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Location
San Antonio, Texas
I would never agree with John Brown and his motives or actions. He was not a solider but a coward. But this is about Tubman. She was smart by not being present in Harpers Ferry that day. But, why would she align with him?

She was too ill to go, otherwise she would have been there. Do you really need to wonder why?
"Walk a mile in her shoes..."
 
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Oct 14, 2015
Location
NJ
How do you know that? Grant was a slaver. Lincoln was a white supremacist.
I thought Grant’s slave was a gift from his father in law which he immediately set free. I also believe at a time he was pretty much broken financially, He could have sold him, but he still chose to set him free. At least this is my understanding.
 

FedericoFCavada

First Sergeant
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Location
San Antonio, Texas
I would never agree with John Brown and his motives or actions. He was not a solider but a coward. But this is about Tubman. She was smart by not being present in Harpers Ferry that day. But, why would she align with him?
Terrorism, like killing unarmed men, is certainly cowardly. The moral condemnation might not matter to the waging of a Fabian or guerrilla or "asymmetric" strategy.
Mao Zedong ("evil!" yeah.... I know... ) adage:

The strategy is to pit few against many.
The tactic is to pit many against few.

Accounts of the hanging of Brown agree that he met his end at the gallows rather stoically.
 

Cycom

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Los Angeles, California
Funny how modern tribalism is able to let people cherry pick the “right” kind of white supremacists and vilify others. As an example, my main man NBF is consistently demonized by people who should know better, because his redemptive arc doesn’t fit with their own narrative. Then nary a peep about butchers/persecutors of native Americans because they were from the “correct” region or group. This plays out constantly and it’s not subtle at all.

Keep Grant on my bills. Don’t care that he was imperfect. Ditto for Jackson. I like my U.S. presidents.

Personally, I’d like to see MLK on some cash.
 

1950lemans

First Sergeant
Joined
Jun 23, 2013
Location
Connecticut
I've said this before on a previous thread. Get rid of all the "oldies" from our currency. I mean Washington, Lincoln, Franklin, etc. Put "newbies" from our history on the currency. Personally there shouldn't be any presidents this time around. The choices should be Americans who tried to make America a great country, in the world and amongst it's own people. Who from the last century would fit that bill? Maybe this time around stay away from politics and the military also. Maybe look into humanitarians, look into the sciences, into medicine, into economists, maybe social scientists, those from the arts and from literature and yes, maybe a great historian too.
 

Fairfield

Sergeant Major
Member of the Month
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Ben F - another slave owner
Like many professionals, Franklin had slaves in his early days. However, by 1858 he was seeing the light....to the degree that he became president of the Philadelphia Society for the Relief of Free Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage (a Quaker abolitionist society). In 1789 he wrote: "Slavery is such an atrocious debasement of human nature, that its very extirpation, if not performed with solicitous care, may sometimes open a source of serious evils."
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2021
Like many professionals, Franklin had slaves in his early days. However, by 1858 he was seeing the light....to the degree that he became president of the Philadelphia Society for the Relief of Free Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage (a Quaker abolitionist society). In 1789 he wrote: "Slavery is such an atrocious debasement of human nature, that its very extirpation, if not performed with solicitous care, may sometimes open a source of serious evils."
Many Americans - North and South - like Franklin transformed into 'seeing the light' . I will give him the honor of respecting his change. But will others do the same for Forrest, Washington, George Wallace, John Hancock, US Grant, William Sherman, Phil Sheridan, Lincoln, etc. These Americans also transformed into 'seeing the light' and changed.
 

Fairfield

Sergeant Major
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Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Many Americans - North and South - like Franklin transformed into 'seeing the light' . I will give him the honor of respecting his change. But will others do the same for Forrest, Washington, George Wallace, John Hancock, US Grant, William Sherman, Phil Sheridan, Lincoln, etc. These Americans also transformed into 'seeing the light' and changed.
"Many Americans - North and South"
When we were children, we ate with our fingers (north and south). But that doesn't make it good manners. Some learned and some were left behind.

Forrest? Wasn't he the KKK man? Doubt he changed for the better.
Grant? Mrs. Grant, only on a technicality
Lincoln? I think not.
Sherman? Not established
Sheridan? A racist and an unpleasant individual but I've not read that he had slaves
Washington? He never changed, AFAIK
Wallace? He lived long afterwards.
 

Fairfield

Sergeant Major
Member of the Month
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Forrest? Wasn't he the KKK man? Doubt he changed for the better.

He did. Plenty of threads here in the Forrest sub proving this. If we can acknowledge and admire the moral growth of Lincoln, then we should, in good faith, do the same for others.
There's no comparison. Absolutely no comparison.

BTW...postings on a forum are opinions, not proof of anything. Historical proof is a bit more complicated.
 

Cycom

Sergeant
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Los Angeles, California
There's no comparison. Absolutely no comparison.

BTW...postings on a forum are opinions, not proof of anything. Historical proof is a bit more complicated.
Im not talking about opinions. I’m talking about facts brought forth here by others in the NBF sub. If anything I’ve presented below is an opinion, please point it out and demonstrate the “historical proof.”


-Did he radically change his views on black/white relationships in the post war years? Yes he did. That’s a fact, not an opinion.

“We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict.”


“Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. This day is a day that is proud to me, having occupied the position that I did for the past twelve years, and been misunderstood by your race. This is the first opportunity I have had during that time to say that I am your friend. I am here a representative of the southern people, one more slandered and maligned than any man in the nation.

I will say to you and to the colored race that men who bore arms and followed the flag of the Confederacy are, with very few exceptions, your friends. I have an opportunity of saying what I have always felt—that I am your friend, for my interests are your interests, and your interests are my interests. We were born on the same soil, breathe the same air, and live in the same land. Why, then, can we not live as brothers? I will say that when the war broke out I felt it my duty to stand by my people. When the time came I did the best I could, and I don't believe I flickered. I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe that I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to bring about peace. It has always been my motto to elevate every man—to depress none. I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going.

I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, that you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Use your best judgement in selecting men for office and vote as you think right.

Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. I have been in the heat of battle when colored men, asked me to protect them. I have placed myself between them and the bullets of my men, and told them they should be kept unharmed. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand.”


-Did he strive to heal the nation’s wounds and bring goodwill to the reunified country? Yes. Fact.

“Let us all, then, join their comrades who live, in spreading flowers over the graves of these dead Federal soldiers, before the whole American people, as a peace offering to the nation, as a testimonial of our respect for their devotion to duty, and as a tribute from patriots, as we have ever been, to the great Republic, and in honor of the flag against which we fought, and under which they fell, nobly maintaining the honor of that flag. It is our duty to honor the government for which they died, and if called upon, to fight for the flag we could not conquer.”

"I have never on the field of battle sent you where I was unwilling to go myself, nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers. You can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the government to which you have surrendered can afford to be and will be magnanimous."

"We are born on the same soil, breathe the same air, live on the same land, and why should we not be brothers and sisters?"

-Did he call for the disbanding of the kkk when he realized they were a danger? Yes. Fact.

“Abolish the Loyal League and The Ku Klux Klan; let us come together and stand together.”


Wish I had the ability to post other quotes from the books I read but they are on audible so alas I cannot give page numbers and footnotes. What I can say is that an honest, frank look at his life and legacy pre and postwar show a man that went through massive changes in his outlook on people and society. If you believe this to be false, prove it.
 

Fairfield

Sergeant Major
Member of the Month
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Im not talking about opinions. I’m talking about facts brought forth here by others in the NBF sub. If anything I’ve presented below is an opinion, please point it out and demonstrate the “historical proof.”


-Did he radically change his views on black/white relationships in the post war years? Yes he did. That’s a fact, not an opinion.

“We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict.”


“Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. This day is a day that is proud to me, having occupied the position that I did for the past twelve years, and been misunderstood by your race. This is the first opportunity I have had during that time to say that I am your friend. I am here a representative of the southern people, one more slandered and maligned than any man in the nation.

I will say to you and to the colored race that men who bore arms and followed the flag of the Confederacy are, with very few exceptions, your friends. I have an opportunity of saying what I have always felt—that I am your friend, for my interests are your interests, and your interests are my interests. We were born on the same soil, breathe the same air, and live in the same land. Why, then, can we not live as brothers? I will say that when the war broke out I felt it my duty to stand by my people. When the time came I did the best I could, and I don't believe I flickered. I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe that I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to bring about peace. It has always been my motto to elevate every man—to depress none. I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going.

I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, that you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Use your best judgement in selecting men for office and vote as you think right.

Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. I have been in the heat of battle when colored men, asked me to protect them. I have placed myself between them and the bullets of my men, and told them they should be kept unharmed. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand.”


-Did he strive to heal the nation’s wounds and bring goodwill to the reunified country? Yes. Fact.

“Let us all, then, join their comrades who live, in spreading flowers over the graves of these dead Federal soldiers, before the whole American people, as a peace offering to the nation, as a testimonial of our respect for their devotion to duty, and as a tribute from patriots, as we have ever been, to the great Republic, and in honor of the flag against which we fought, and under which they fell, nobly maintaining the honor of that flag. It is our duty to honor the government for which they died, and if called upon, to fight for the flag we could not conquer.”

"I have never on the field of battle sent you where I was unwilling to go myself, nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers. You can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the government to which you have surrendered can afford to be and will be magnanimous."

"We are born on the same soil, breathe the same air, live on the same land, and why should we not be brothers and sisters?"

-Did he call for the disbanding of the kkk when he realized they were a danger? Yes. Fact.

“Abolish the Loyal League and The Ku Klux Klan; let us come together and stand together.”


Wish I had the ability to post other quotes from the books I read but they are on audible so alas I cannot give page numbers and footnotes. What I can say is that an honest, frank look at his life and legacy pre and postwar show a man that went through massive changes in his outlook on people and society. If you believe this to be false, prove it.
Get out the violins 🙄. I've no desire to get into a dispute about a man like Bedford Forrest; I have little interest in him.

However, the quotations that you give are from a speech that he gave and which were given little credit. A person can say anything s/he wants--it's called "spin control". No facts whatsoever. To look at what a person means--rather than what s/he says for an audience, it is necessary to look at the pattern of that person's actions as well as evaluations by those in a position to know.

One of the silly statements is that he called for disbanding KKK. He says that he called for it--but the organization continued, along with his probable continued involvement. Public repudiation, actually something else. NBF's ongoing and continued relationship is attested to be numerous statements by others who knew him--by UCV itself (and these testimonies continued long after his death. For example (1909)
Bedford Forrest should always be held in reverence by every son and daughter of the South as long as memory holds dear the noble deeds and service of men for the good of others on this earth. What mind is base enough to think of what might have happened but for Bedford Forrest and his “invisible” but victorious army. “ (p. 9) [“invisible army" was KKK]

I've gone over the transcript of his testimony before Congress--self contradictory. The Congressional report cited was the minority report. FACT

He said that he'd not been a KKK member. Well? Would an organization--based on secrecy and the tightness of its leadership--have elected an outsider as its first Grand Wizard? Open for questions. Perhaps you think so but I think not.

If he truly was so great an advocate for the very people he had profited from, the very people he had held as human chattel, then why haven't any of the civil rights groups come to his defense in the controversy over his bust? FACT

Looking at the patterns, I'm inclined to agree with historian Michael Martinez who wrote, "Although Forrest repudiated the group's activities after less than two years, he transformed the budding terrorist organization into an effective mechanism for promoting white supremacy in the Old South.” There is a difference between "development" and "change". Did NBF has a "Road to Damascus Moment"? Probably not.
 

lurid

First Sergeant
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Im not talking about opinions. I’m talking about facts brought forth here by others in the NBF sub. If anything I’ve presented below is an opinion, please point it out and demonstrate the “historical proof.”


-Did he radically change his views on black/white relationships in the post war years? Yes he did. That’s a fact, not an opinion.

“We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict.”


“Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. This day is a day that is proud to me, having occupied the position that I did for the past twelve years, and been misunderstood by your race. This is the first opportunity I have had during that time to say that I am your friend. I am here a representative of the southern people, one more slandered and maligned than any man in the nation.

I will say to you and to the colored race that men who bore arms and followed the flag of the Confederacy are, with very few exceptions, your friends. I have an opportunity of saying what I have always felt—that I am your friend, for my interests are your interests, and your interests are my interests. We were born on the same soil, breathe the same air, and live in the same land. Why, then, can we not live as brothers? I will say that when the war broke out I felt it my duty to stand by my people. When the time came I did the best I could, and I don't believe I flickered. I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe that I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to bring about peace. It has always been my motto to elevate every man—to depress none. I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going.

I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, that you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment. Use your best judgement in selecting men for office and vote as you think right.

Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. I have been in the heat of battle when colored men, asked me to protect them. I have placed myself between them and the bullets of my men, and told them they should be kept unharmed. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand.”


-Did he strive to heal the nation’s wounds and bring goodwill to the reunified country? Yes. Fact.

“Let us all, then, join their comrades who live, in spreading flowers over the graves of these dead Federal soldiers, before the whole American people, as a peace offering to the nation, as a testimonial of our respect for their devotion to duty, and as a tribute from patriots, as we have ever been, to the great Republic, and in honor of the flag against which we fought, and under which they fell, nobly maintaining the honor of that flag. It is our duty to honor the government for which they died, and if called upon, to fight for the flag we could not conquer.”

"I have never on the field of battle sent you where I was unwilling to go myself, nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers. You can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the government to which you have surrendered can afford to be and will be magnanimous."

"We are born on the same soil, breathe the same air, live on the same land, and why should we not be brothers and sisters?"

-Did he call for the disbanding of the kkk when he realized they were a danger? Yes. Fact.

“Abolish the Loyal League and The Ku Klux Klan; let us come together and stand together.”


Wish I had the ability to post other quotes from the books I read but they are on audible so alas I cannot give page numbers and footnotes. What I can say is that an honest, frank look at his life and legacy pre and postwar show a man that went through massive changes in his outlook on people and society. If you believe this to be false, prove it.
Like that one member said, it is a bad comparison and furthermore you missed the real comparison. Lincoln always abhorred slavery, he didn't have an epiphany during the course of his life that changed his thinking. He always hated "slavery" and could empathize with slaves. Why? Because it is a known fact that Lincoln's father treated him like a slave: worked him 20 Hrs. ED, contracted him out and public humiliations. Lincoln could empathize with slaves, no matter the skin color. Outside of that I'm quite sure Lincoln didn't have much in common with black people. But he could empathize with their plight. What could NBF empathize with slaves about? Nothing. He actually was a proponent for sustaining slavery, he actually fought for it. Lincoln never owned slaves nor did he ever fight for it. Prove that NBF could empathize with slaves or black people for that matter. Never mind, you can't and never will...

But the real issue here is that you made a comparison on how two people who lived in a white supremist society somehow gradually overcame their racism: one with rhetoric and another by actions. LOL. What exactly are you trying to prove? NBF was part of an all-inclusive military/social/economic defeat that relegated him to a dirt farmer when he spouted out that rhetoric. That equates to a lifelong atheist who repents on his or her deathbed.

Not only is you post a bad comparison, you missed the real comparison. Godspeed..
 
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