Grant Grant and Drink was Reliability of U.S. Grant's Personal Memoirs

“General Grant is a great general, “I know him well. He stood by me when I was crazy and I stood by him when he was drunk; and now, sir, we stand by each other always.” William Tecumseh Sherman.

There's a little-known piece of evidence, from an unnamed source, who wrote about a talk he had with Sherman: "he said when Grant lived in St Louis (having retired from the army, and with nothing to do) he became intemperate and often got drunk." Grant would sell wood in St Louis "and drink it up[?] before he got home."

I'm offering this for what it is worth. I have little to no interest in being questioned as to the validity of this as evidence, as I'm sure that many will reject it out of hand.
 
There's a little-known piece of evidence, from an unnamed source, who wrote about a talk he had with Sherman: "he said when Grant lived in St Louis (having retired from the army, and with nothing to do) he became intemperate and often got drunk." Grant would sell wood in St Louis "and drink it up[?] before he got home."

I'm offering this for what it is worth. I have little to no interest in being questioned as to the validity of this as evidence, as I'm sure that many will reject it out of hand.
Why would we accept it as fact? It's an unnamed source. That doesn't exactly lend it much credibility. I'll take it with a grain of salt.
 
There's a little-known piece of evidence, from an unnamed source, who wrote about a talk he had with Sherman: "he said when Grant lived in St Louis (having retired from the army, and with nothing to do) he became intemperate and often got drunk." Grant would sell wood in St Louis "and drink it up[?] before he got home."

I'm offering this for what it is worth. I have little to no interest in being questioned as to the validity of this as evidence, as I'm sure that many will reject it out of hand.
You are offering it merely to throw **** on the wall to see what sticks...
 
I'm offering this for what it is worth. I have little to no interest in being questioned as to the validity of this as evidence, as I'm sure that many will reject it out of hand.

Any iconoclastic view against cherished individuals here leads to vitriol. Even though the words are written, and not spoken, one can sense the seething contempt that emanates from them. I picture red faces, veins bulging, with flecks of spittle projecting out. How dare you suggest that Grant may have had an affliction common to many. How dare you cast aspersions on his character. These are Gods and Generals, sir.
 
Any iconoclastic view against cherished individuals here leads to vitriol. Even though the words are written, and not spoken, one can sense the seething contempt that emanates from them. I picture red faces, veins bulging, with flecks of spittle projecting out. How dare you suggest that Grant may have had an affliction common to many. How dare you cast aspersions on his character. These are Gods and Generals, sir.

Or maybe it's that one needs a little more than an unnamed source for a random anecdote as the basis for a blanket statement.

R
 
Or maybe it's that one needs a little more than an unnamed source for a random anecdote as the basis for a blanket statement.

R
The term "lost cause" gets thrown around here a lot. What should we call this? "Winning cause"?

Grant learned how to cope with his addiction to liquor by learning when he could take a drink. Although difficult at times, Grant was able to control his sickness and rely on his ability as a natural leader to achieve victory on the battlefield. ‘In the end…his predisposition to alcoholism may have made him a better general. His struggle for self-discipline enabled him to understand and discipline others; the humiliation of prewar failures gave him a quiet humility that was conspicuously absent from so many generals with a reputation to protect; because Grant had nowhere to go but up, he could act with more boldness and decision than commanders who dared not risk failure -James McPherson, Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era
 
The term "lost cause" gets thrown around here a lot. What should we call this? "Winning cause"?

Grant learned how to cope with his addiction to liquor by learning when he could take a drink. Although difficult at times, Grant was able to control his sickness and rely on his ability as a natural leader to achieve victory on the battlefield. ‘In the end…his predisposition to alcoholism may have made him a better general. His struggle for self-discipline enabled him to understand and discipline others; the humiliation of prewar failures gave him a quiet humility that was conspicuously absent from so many generals with a reputation to protect; because Grant had nowhere to go but up, he could act with more boldness and decision than commanders who dared not risk failure -James McPherson, Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era

No one is going to argue that Grant was likely an alcoholic. We were responding to a very specific anecdote about Grant in St. Louis which is based upon an unnamed source. Not to mention that other anecdotes have been thrown out in other threads about Grant's actions while drinking which have been shown to be based on rumor at best. Basically, these anecdotes are being thrown out to see what muck will stick.

R
 
Or maybe it's that one needs a little more than an unnamed source for a random anecdote as the basis for a blanket statement.
R

I certainly didn't make a blanket statement based on this one source, and Reb merely used the word "suggest." And the trouble for US Grant is that there is far more evidence of his alcoholism than one or two little statements. A friend and Galena physician, who was in Grant's army during the first years of the war, Dr. Kittoe, said that "Grant was addicted to the use of strong drink during the early years of the war."

Some people just don't like to hear about these things.
 
I certainly didn't make a blanket statement based on this one source, and Reb merely used the word "suggest." And the trouble for US Grant is that there is far more evidence of his alcoholism than one or two little statements. A friend and Galena physician, who was in Grant's army during the first years of the war, Dr. Kittoe, said that "Grant was addicted to the use of strong drink during the early years of the war."

Some people just don't like to hear about these things.
Don't worry. You're here to remind them. Waiting for the pie chart.

So what? Grant drank and got drunk. I wonder where the vendetta leads this time.

We have seen some strange ways of promoting books lately.
 
Some of Grant's supporters blame tough economic conditions for Grant's failure to thrive as a farmer in Missouri. This could offer another explanation for it.
They are not mutually exclusive. Grant struggles to make ends meet, he's physically ill (you aren't going to tell us that he was lying about that, too, are you?), there's a serious panic in 1857, and, depressed, he gets drunk.

Sherman also once said that the Grants buried a child in St. Louis, but no one else mentions that. But let's say it's true. Perhaps he was also depressed about that.

All of that information escapes your attention. I wonder why.

But you still haven't offered useful information on Sherman's presence in St. Louis in order to make such an observation. I will: it was late 1857 to January 1858. Sherman was between business failures. So Grant would be struggling in the immediate aftermath of the Panic. Grant would not move to St. Louis until early 1858, after Sherman had left to go to San Francisco again.

I'm sure I'm not alone in noticing your relentless antagonism toward Grant. This, in my mind, complicates the effectiveness of what you have uncovered. Just as you complain about Grant apologists and their work, one can complain about how Dr. Varney, Mr. Moore, and you are Grant antagonists, and that your work is no better and just as entangled by bias. I found the pie chart exercise to be ridiculous. I found "Harvey's" quick use of it amusing.

That you took a largely dormant thread on the Memoirs to raise questions about Grant's drinking (ever hear of starting a new thread?) raises questions in my mind, not only about your obsessive vendetta against Grant, but why you think that pursuing it in the fashion you do is likely to change minds or sell books.
 
Some of Grant's supporters blame tough economic conditions for Grant's failure to thrive as a farmer in Missouri. This could offer another explanation for it.

It could offer an alternate explanation if it wasn't based on anecdotes and hearsay. Without more evidence than this, it is speculation, at best.

R
 
It could offer an alternate explanation if it wasn't based on anecdotes and hearsay. Without more evidence than this, it is speculation, at best.
R

Okay, a first-hand account:
A neighbor who helped build Grant's log house, John Parke, related that, "It used to be the custom in those days for a host to pour the liquor in his guest's cup, and keep on pouring till the guest would say 'when.' Old man Dent was pouring for Grant once, and Grant kept on watching the liquor raise in the glass without saying anything. The tumbler was getting full and Dent was getting mad. 'Dammit, Grant, will you never say "when"?' exclaimed the old man, and everybody laughed, for we all liked our liquor in those days, but Grant most of all."

By the way, those little explanations that Grant would get drunk on just a drink or two are, almost undoubtedly, mere excuses for his alcoholism.
 
Okay, a first-hand account:
A neighbor who helped build Grant's log house, John Parke, related that, "It used to be the custom in those days for a host to pour the liquor in his guest's cup, and keep on pouring till the guest would say 'when.' Old man Dent was pouring for Grant once, and Grant kept on watching the liquor raise in the glass without saying anything. The tumbler was getting full and Dent was getting mad. 'Dammit, Grant, will you never say "when"?' exclaimed the old man, and everybody laughed, for we all liked our liquor in those days, but Grant most of all."

By the way, those little explanations that Grant would get drunk on just a drink or two are, almost undoubtedly, mere excuses for his alcoholism.
I don't doubt that Grant drank. I don't doubt he got drunk. I also don't doubt that his father-in-law didn't like him, but, if Grant had a habit, old man Dent wasn't helping matters.

The "so what?" remains unanswered. I suspect we'll get a laundry list of more accounts. I ask the moderators to make this its own thread.
 
No, this discussion aptly belongs in discussing the Memoirs and Grant's reliability.

Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain wrote: "I wish I had thought of it! I would have said to General Grant: 'Put the drunkenness in the Memoirs--and the repentance and reform. Trust the people.' [Para] But I will wager there is not a hint in the book. He was sore, there. As much of the book as I have read gives no hint, as far as I recollect."
 
Okay, a first-hand account:
A neighbor who helped build Grant's log house, John Parke, related that, "It used to be the custom in those days for a host to pour the liquor in his guest's cup, and keep on pouring till the guest would say 'when.' Old man Dent was pouring for Grant once, and Grant kept on watching the liquor raise in the glass without saying anything. The tumbler was getting full and Dent was getting mad. 'Dammit, Grant, will you never say "when"?' exclaimed the old man, and everybody laughed, for we all liked our liquor in those days, but Grant most of all."

By the way, those little explanations that Grant would get drunk on just a drink or two are, almost undoubtedly, mere excuses for his alcoholism.

So you've shown that Grant liked alcohol. That's not really shocking or newsworthy. Again, you're not showing that it affected his financial success or lack thereof.

R
 
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